Why aren’t sodium batteries being pushed more

[tyroneweaver]

Seams like a viable option from lithium

 

[toobfreak]

Why aren’t sodium batteries being pushed more​

Slower intercalation and lower volumetric density. But the real reason is because there is big money invested in lithium. The big profits just are not there because sodium is too abundant.

 

[ReinyDays]

Slower intercalation and lower volumetric density. But the real reason is because there is big money invested in lithium. The big profits just are not there because sodium is too abundant.

For now ... we've found a major lithium deposit in Utah ...

Sodium-ion technology is being pursued, it appears they don't hold as much charge, so less of a fire hazard ... my 12-year-old lead-acid battery is running fine, and when she dies, just torch it to recover the copper and lead ...

 

[toobfreak]

For now ... we've found a major lithium deposit in Utah ...

Is that the one now on hold because the environmentalists are worried about a patch of some rare weed growing nearby being disturbed?

... my 12-year-old lead-acid battery is running fine, and when she dies, just torch it to recover the copper and lead ...

I use a trickle charger which pings the battery with pulses which breaks up mineral deposits from forming on the inside which is the chief cause of causing batteries to age.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Seams like a viable option from lithium

Such ideas like the Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project go bust with problems.

 

[ReinyDays]

Is that the one now on hold because the environmentalists are worried about a patch of some rare weed growing nearby being disturbed?

... or demand is drying up ... EV sales are slumping ...

I use a trickle charger which pings the battery with pulses which breaks up mineral deposits from forming on the inside which is the chief cause of causing batteries to age.

This works for golf carts ... maybe we're expecting too much from our EVs ...

 

[toobfreak]

... or demand is drying up ... EV sales are slumping ...

No, this is the place I was thinking of, a lithium deposit discovered in Nevada on hold because a rare strain of buckwheat was found growing right near where the entrance would be.

Nevada lithium mine wins final approval despite potential harm to endangered wildflower

For the first time under President Joe Biden, a federal permit for a new lithium mine in the U.S. has been approved.

apnews.com

But yeah, EV sales are slumping and they are really going to slump now that Trump has killed Joe's EV mandate.

This works for golf carts ... maybe we're expecting too much from our EVs ...

I've ridden in several EVs, they are just fine they seem, I really don't notice much difference, just that I wouldn't want to depend on one traveling long distance where charging access was uncertain or in a very cold climate, but they could be a great choice for some or a good choice for a secondary car for many, so long as people actually have the CHOICE of buying them.

 

[trevorjohnson83]

If the oxidation process of burning wood or plastic or something could be controlled like in a battery, how would you do that?

when something oxidizes its weight changes because the new molecule formed has new sized atoms that alter the surface area and release some electricity/heat from the core.

 

[ReinyDays]

I've ridden in several EVs, they are just fine they seem, I really don't notice much difference, just that I wouldn't want to depend on one traveling long distance where charging access was uncertain or in a very cold climate, but they could be a great choice for some or a good choice for a secondary car for many, so long as people actually have the CHOICE of buying them.

Exactly ... EVs are great where electricity is cheap, renewable, carbon-neutral and really really chews up fish ... all but bouillabaisse there in the Port of Portland ...

 

[trevorjohnson83]

can you make it more like a battery where the ember only oxidizes when electricity passes from the annode to the cathode?


Assistant
Poe


To create a system where an ember oxidizes only when electricity passes from the anode to the cathode, you would essentially be designing a controlled electrochemical cell that uses the ember as part of the reaction. Here’s a conceptual framework for how you might achieve this:

Conceptual Design​

1. Electrochemical Cell Structure:
   • Anode and Cathode: Use a material that acts as the anode (e.g., a metal that oxidizes easily) and a cathode that can withstand the environment and support the necessary reactions. The ember would be placed in such a way that it can interact with the oxidation reaction at the anode.
   • Electrolyte: Choose an electrolyte that allows ions to flow between the anode and cathode while remaining stable at the operating temperatures. A liquid electrolyte or gel that can tolerate heat may be ideal.
2. Controlled Oxidation:
   • Activation Mechanism: Use a switch or a control circuit to allow current to flow through the cell only when desired. This could be a mechanical switch, a relay, or an electronic control system.
   • Oxidation Reaction: The ember would only oxidize when the current is flowing, meaning it would only combust when the electrochemical reaction is active. This could be controlled by adjusting the voltage or current through the circuit.
3. Heat Management:
   • Insulation: Ensure that the components (especially the battery and electrolyte) are insulated from the direct heat of the ember to prevent damage.
   • Thermal Interface: Use materials that can transfer heat efficiently between the ember and the electrolyte when the current is flowing, enhancing the oxidation process.

Steps for Implementation​

1. Materials Selection:
   • Anode: Consider using a metal like zinc or magnesium that can easily oxidize.
   • Cathode: Use a stable material, such as graphite or a noble metal, that can withstand high temperatures without degrading.
   • Electrolyte: Choose a high-temperature electrolyte, like a molten salt or a gel that maintains conductivity under heat.
2. Electrical Circuit:
   • Power Source: Use a rechargeable battery or a power supply that can provide the necessary voltage and current.
   • Control System: Implement a switch or microcontroller that can control when electricity flows through the circuit, allowing for precise control over the oxidation process.
3. Testing and Calibration:
   • Prototype Development: Build a prototype to test the interactions between the ember, the anode, and the cathode. Monitor the temperature and oxidation rates.
   • Adjustment: Fine-tune the voltage and current to optimize the combustion of the ember only when needed.

Safety Considerations​

• Ventilation: Ensure proper ventilation to avoid the accumulation of combustion gases.
• Heat Management: Monitor the system to prevent overheating, especially in the battery and electrolyte components.
• Containment: Use materials that can contain the ember and any potential flames safely.

Conclusion​

By designing an electrochemical cell where the ember only oxidizes when electricity flows from the anode to the cathode, you can control the combustion process effectively. This setup would require careful selection of materials, a robust electrical circuit, and effective thermal management, ensuring safety and efficiency in energy capture and utilization.

 

[trevorjohnson83]

can you elaborate on how the ember oxidization is controlled, also where the ember is placed?


Assistant
Poe


Certainly! Here’s a detailed overview of how the oxidation of the ember can be controlled in an electrochemical setup, along with the placement of the ember within the system.

Control Mechanism for Ember Oxidation​

1. Electrochemical Cell Design:
   • Components:
     • Anode: A metal that easily oxidizes (e.g., zinc or magnesium).
     • Cathode: A stable material (e.g., graphite or a noble metal) that can withstand high temperatures.
     • Electrolyte: A conductive medium (liquid or gel) that allows ion movement, such as molten salts or high-temperature gels.
2. Placement of the Ember:
   • Positioning: The ember should be placed in proximity to the anode, ideally within a small chamber that allows for efficient heat transfer. This could be a small compartment where the ember can burn without being directly submerged in the electrolyte.
   • Thermal Contact: Ensure that the ember can transfer heat to the anode, enhancing the oxidation reaction when the current flows.
3. Activation of Oxidation:
   • Electrical Circuit:
     • Switching Mechanism: Incorporate a switch (mechanical or electronic) that allows or interrupts the flow of electricity through the circuit. This could be controlled manually or through a microcontroller.
     • Control Logic: Use a microcontroller to monitor conditions (e.g., temperature or ember presence) and activate the circuit when specific criteria are met.
   • Current Flow: When the switch is activated, current flows from the anode to the cathode, facilitating the electrochemical reaction. This reaction will promote oxidation of the ember due to the heat generated and the electrochemical processes at the anode.
4. Feedback Mechanism:
   • Sensors: Integrate temperature or flame sensors to monitor the state of the ember. If the ember cools or extinguishes, the system can automatically cut off the current to prevent unnecessary oxidation.
   • Dynamic Adjustment: The system can adjust the voltage or current based on real-time feedback, optimizing the oxidation rate based on the ember's condition.

Step-by-Step Process​

1. Initial Setup:
   • Place the ember in a chamber close to the anode, ensuring good thermal contact but not direct immersion in the electrolyte.
   • Fill the surrounding area with the chosen electrolyte, ensuring that the anode is submerged while keeping the ember dry.
2. Activation:
   • When ready to initiate oxidation, the operator or control system activates the switch to allow current to flow from the anode to the cathode.
   • As current flows, the anode oxidizes, releasing heat that heats the ember.
3. Oxidation Control:
   • The heat from the anode, combined with the current, promotes the oxidation of the ember.
   • Sensors monitor the temperature and the presence of combustion. The system can adjust the current or switch off if the ember reaches a certain temperature or if it goes out.
4. Continuous Monitoring:
   • The system continuously checks the conditions to ensure optimal performance. If the ember begins to cool or if there is no longer a flame, the circuit can be deactivated to conserve energy and prevent unwanted oxidation.

Conclusion​

In this controlled setup, the oxidation of the ember is regulated by the flow of electricity through an electrochemical cell. The ember is strategically placed near the anode to maximize heat transfer, and the entire system can be dynamically adjusted based on real-time feedback. This allows for efficient use of energy while ensuring that oxidation occurs only when desired.

 

[toobfreak]

Exactly ... EVs are great where electricity is cheap, renewable, carbon-neutral and really really chews up fish ... all but bouillabaisse there in the Port of Portland ...

I'm not much of a fan though of these fixed dashboard screens showing traffic patterns and directions. Seems to me that is a big distraction and should only pop up when asked for and needed, otherwise just a lot of wasted power consumed. I have a Garmin Nuvi traffic director and I have not even used it in years, and even then, only when heading far away out of state.

I was in a Tesla last year that showed all the cars around us for about 200 feet. Just symbols of size and location. I finally asked the driver why he needed this and I pointed out that I could get all the same information by simply looking out the window.

Mind you, in the time it takes me to look away from where I'm driving to see the info on the dash and interpret these diagrams, things can suddenly change outside leading to my having a crash because I was looking at the dash instead of where I'm driving. I also questioned the value of this feature considering it probably added about $2,000 to the cost of the car.

One other point about new cars (especially EVs): these new all electronic dashboards have a problem--- older cars all had discreet (even analog) gauges each devoted to a particular function. As such, mechanical or electronic, they rarely failed but if one did after 20 years, all it affected was that one function. These new dashboards have everything electronic fed by sensor to one big central master CPU, which then feeds all that info to one central master driver which then translate all those signals into displaying them on one big panel OLED screen to appear as "gauges," readouts, traffic displays, etc.

The problem I see here is several choke-points where if there is a single failure at that point, the driver wouldn't lose just his oil pressure display or his speed, but EVERYTHING. No display of nothing. Worse, repairing the problem (replacing the part is, I expect, mucho expensioso.

Lastly about your fish stew (bouillabaisse), not much a fan of it. It was actually invented by fishermen as a way of just using up the junk fish they could not sell and spicing it up to cover the fact that it was made of a mix of fish heads and parts no one otherwise wanted.

Just saying.

 

[ReinyDays]

I'm not much of a fan though of these fixed dashboard screens showing traffic patterns and directions. Seems to me that is a big distraction and should only pop up when asked for and needed, otherwise just a lot of wasted power consumed. I have a Garmin Nuvi traffic director and I have not even used it in years, and even then, only when heading far away out of state.

I was in a Tesla last year that showed all the cars around us for about 200 feet. Just symbols of size and location. I finally asked the driver why he needed this and I pointed out that I could get all the same information by simply looking out the window.

Mind you, in the time it takes me to look away from where I'm driving to see the info on the dash and interpret these diagrams, things can suddenly change outside leading to my having a crash because I was looking at the dash instead of where I'm driving. I also questioned the value of this feature considering it probably added about $2,000 to the cost of the car.

One other point about new cars (especially EVs): these new all electronic dashboards have a problem--- older cars all had discreet (even analog) gauges each devoted to a particular function. As such, mechanical or electronic, they rarely failed but if one did after 20 years, all it affected was that one function. These new dashboards have everything electronic fed by sensor to one big central master CPU, which then feeds all that info to one central master driver which then translate all those signals into displaying them on one big panel OLED screen to appear as "gauges," readouts, traffic displays, etc.

The problem I see here is several choke-points where if there is a single failure at that point, the driver wouldn't lose just his oil pressure display or his speed, but EVERYTHING. No display of nothing. Worse, repairing the problem (replacing the part is, I expect, mucho expensioso.

Lastly about your fish stew (bouillabaisse), not much a fan of it. It was actually invented by fishermen as a way of just using up the junk fish they could not sell and spicing it up to cover the fact that it was made of a mix of fish heads and parts no one otherwise wanted.

Just saying.

... but the motor has only one moving part ...

 

[toobfreak]

... but the motor has only one moving part ...

Just as wind energy is free. All you have to do is mine all the rare earths, build the huge towers, giant generators and enormous blades, clear the land, then keep servicing and replacing them every few years.

Some time back I tried to create a chart illustrating the problem with green solar energy vs. simple fossil fuels, but I'm afraid that most will not understand it without a block of text along with each step explaining the enormous cost and complexity involved in each of the many steps just to get a fraction of the energy easily found in just a tank of gas.

The problem with technology is that while it can be very wonderful and beneficial, it is also very technical.
Just look at the engine compartment of your 2020 automobile compared to the engine compartment of your 1968 Dodge PU to see the relationship between efficiency and complexity.

 

[ReinyDays]

Just as wind energy is free. All you have to do is mine all the rare earths, build the huge towers, giant generators and enormous blades, clear the land, then keep servicing and replacing them every few years.

Some time back I tried to create a chart illustrating the problem with green solar energy vs. simple fossil fuels, but I'm afraid that most will not understand it without a block of text along with each step explaining the enormous cost and complexity involved in each of the many steps just to get a fraction of the energy easily found in just a tank of gas.

View attachment 1071494

The problem with technology is that while it can be very wonderful and beneficial, it is also very technical.
Just look at the engine compartment of your 2020 automobile compared to the engine compartment of your 1968 Dodge PU to see the relationship between efficiency and complexity.

I'm on hydro here ... granted, that dam at Bonneville was expensive 87 years ago ... but that cost is paid for except for the fish kills ...

How many moving parts on just the carburetor on the '68 Dodge?:

I have a reader ... don't know if it works on the 2020 Olds ... but my pick-up tells me what wrong ... just buy the part and replace ... that has always fixed any problem I've had since I dumped the VW Buses ... and no damn points to adjust ... how many moving parts on the distributor on the '68 Dodge? ...

 

[toobfreak]

How many moving parts on just the carburetor on the '68 Dodge?:

... how many moving parts on the distributor on the '68 Dodge? ...

Looks like an old Carter Carb. That's just it, lots of parts in the drive train of an ICE car. Complicated delivery system but simple fuel/power supply.
Whereas with an EV it is a very simple delivery system but highly complicated fuel/power supply.
They simply moved the complexity from the delivery system to the power system.

 

[ReinyDays]

Looks like an old Carter Carb. That's just it, lots of parts in the drive train of an ICE car. Complicated delivery system but simple fuel/power supply.
Whereas with an EV it is a very simple delivery system but highly complicated fuel/power supply.
They simply moved the complexity from the delivery system to the power system.

Why do you think refining gasoline is simple? ... why do you think plug-in golf carts are complicated? ...

Did you ever re-build that Carter? ... I ran Chevys so my thing was Quadrajets, what a pain ... I'll take these modern new fanged solid state stuff any day ...

My power saw has two moving parts ... over 30 years service without repairs ... the only maintenance is making sure there's oil in the worm gear box ... does your Dodge run for 30 years without maintenance? ... or have you replaced your high tension cables six times? ...

 

[toobfreak]

Why do you think refining gasoline is simple? ...

The theory behind refining fractions of petroleum into various products is fairly simple, but I was referring to the end product--- you put gasoline in your tank and merely atomize it to add an oxidizer and add a flame to ignite it.

Did you ever re-build that Carter? ... I ran Chevys so my thing was Quadrajets, what a pain ... I'll take these modern new fanged solid state stuff any day ...

I have a shelf downstairs full of Holleys, Carters and Q-Jets. Maybe lots of parts but simple in theory. Solid State ignition is complicated as well, just not mechanical.

My power saw has two moving parts ...

Now you are making me repeat myself--- yes, the mower itself is simple. ICE engines are complicated, but that simple mower depends on generating its power far away, often through complex means, then transmitting it to the mower, whereas a gas mower is entirely self-contained.

I can always just buy and add more gas to make a gas mower go, but if the hydro plant fails, or the lines are down, or a car hits a pole or a transformer blows, or the battery wears out, that electric mower is just dead weight.

 

[ReinyDays]

The theory behind refining fractions of petroleum into various products is fairly simple, but I was referring to the end product--- you put gasoline in your tank and merely atomize it to add an oxidizer and add a flame to ignite it.

I have a shelf downstairs full of Holleys, Carters and Q-Jets. Maybe lots of parts but simple in theory. Solid State ignition is complicated as well, just not mechanical.

My question was whether you've re-built any carburetor, successfully ... not if you have a shelf full of broken ones ... I have a box of Stromburgs someplace and you don't hear me bragging about it ...

" ... merely atomize ... "

Yeah, right ... why all manufacturers have switched to fuel injection ...

Now you are making me repeat myself--- yes, the mower itself is simple. ICE engines are complicated, but that simple mower depends on generating its power far away, often through complex means, then transmitting it to the mower, whereas a gas mower is entirely self-contained.

I can always just buy and add more gas to make a gas mower go, but if the hydro plant fails, or the lines are down, or a car hits a pole or a transformer blows, or the battery wears out, that electric mower is just dead weight.

Yes ... repeat yourself again ... this time don't be addressing that ignorant strawman ... I said "power saw", like a Skil 77 ... where are you finding gas-powered woodworking equipment? ... electrical is the very first thing installed in any development site ...

Spoiler

Hydro plant failure ... ha ha ha ... I guess there's been some Hollywood movies ... but seriously? ... electricity goes down you're not getting any gasoline ... those pumps don't work in blackouts ... pretty funny ...

=====

Let me remind you we're discussing golf carts ... I know these new fangled luxury EVs currently on the market aren't efficient ... neither are Ferrari's but The Rich don't seem to care ... EV is just something that'll haul a couple weeks groceries for a family of 4, or commute to work ... an EV would never replace my motorized wheelbarrow (aka small pickup truck) ...

Almost deceitful to bring up electric lawn mowers ... the only thing worse is an electric chain saw ... few homeowners would have the wits to have proper extension cords ... and don't start on batteries ... my golf cart uses lead/acid units ... I can wait for something less flammable ... or not ...

What's wrong with lead/acid batteries? ... other than lead poisoning ...

 

[toobfreak]

My question was whether you've re-built any carburetor, successfully ... not if you have a shelf full of broken ones ...

None of the ones on my shelf are "broken," and yes I've rebuilt many a carb, that is why they made carb kits. Also so you could retune them to work differently.

I have a box of Stromburgs someplace and you don't hear me bragging about it ...

Who was bragging? Rebuilding carbs was just part of the job of souping up cars back in the day.

Yeah, right ... why all manufacturers have switched to fuel injection ...

I was talking about the theory, not the application, can't you read? And there were other reasons why they went with TBI and EFI over carbs than just the complexity of building carbs.

... electricity goes down you're not getting any gasoline ... those pumps don't work in blackouts ... pretty funny ...

You think electricity only goes out for entire communities and not just local streets, etc.? Interesting. Guess you really don't much about power grids.

Let me remind you we're discussing golf carts ...

I never mentioned golf carts, I was talking about cars, you are the one all bent going off on wild tangents.

... few homeowners would have the wits to have proper extension cords ...

Really? You don't own any 50 ft and 100 ft power cords?