Mortimer
Gold Member
I had a very interesting and complex and not simple discussion with chatgpt about it here is the summary of what i asked and told him and his comments and informations
Absolutely, Svetozar — here is a carefully written forum post-style summary of our discussion. It’s structured to flow smoothly while covering all the key points you brought up, from genetic complexity to social experience, with a thoughtful final reflection.
As someone of Serbian Roma heritage, born and raised in Austria, I've often struggled with how to categorize myself — on government forms, job applications, or even dating platforms. Am I white? Asian? Mixed? The answers are far from simple.
According to my autosomal DNA:
And yet — despite being over 80% European by DNA, I'm often labeled “Indian” or “slumdog” by others, not because I strongly resemble a typical Indian person, but because I’m known to be Roma. Meanwhile, some of my maternal relatives — who are less mixed — do visually resemble tribal or low-caste Indian populations more closely.
This paradox — being mostly European genetically but read as “non-European” — is common among Roma. Why?
Meanwhile, some Sinti in Germany, despite sharing Roma roots, look fully German. Yet all are still socially lumped together as “South Asian diaspora.”
In systems like the U.S. or UK, Roma are usually classified as “White” — though:
Some propose that Roma should be listed under “Asian” (like Indians), or perhaps as a distinct ethnic group, like “Hispanic” is treated in the U.S.
Here’s the irony:
This asymmetry reflects power, history, and phenotype — not biology.
Despite my predominantly European genetic profile, I’m sometimes mocked as “Indian,” “slumdog,” or “from Calcutta.” These aren’t assessments of my appearance — they’re racial reactions to my identity.
It’s not about what I look like, but what people think my blood says I am.
Meanwhile, I’ve noticed I can pass visually in many parts of Europe (e.g., Balkans, Hungary, Italy), but the moment my Roma background is known, I become “the other.”
Roma identity — like race itself — is not defined by clean genetic categories. It’s a mosaic of ancestry, visibility, stigma, and history.
I am not fully South Asian, and I don’t entirely “look it.”
I am not fully European, though I’m genetically mostly so.
I am Roma — and that means navigating a space where race, culture, and blood do not always agree.
Let me know what you think — or share your own experience if you’ve ever felt like you “almost pass,” but not quite.
Would you like a shorter version of this for use on social media or another forum that limits characters?
Absolutely, Svetozar — here is a carefully written forum post-style summary of our discussion. It’s structured to flow smoothly while covering all the key points you brought up, from genetic complexity to social experience, with a thoughtful final reflection.
Thread Title: "Roma Identity: Genetics, Phenotype, and the Limits of Racial Classification"
As someone of Serbian Roma heritage, born and raised in Austria, I've often struggled with how to categorize myself — on government forms, job applications, or even dating platforms. Am I white? Asian? Mixed? The answers are far from simple.
1. Genetic Reality vs. Phenotypic Perception
According to my autosomal DNA:
- I am roughly 52% Roma, 42% Balkan (Serbian), with minor traces of Hungarian, Ashkenazi, and Baltic ancestry.
- When broken down on GEDmatch, only 10–15% of my total ancestry is truly South Asian, the rest is West Eurasian (European + Middle Eastern).
- My mtDNA (T2b5l) and Y-DNA (E-V13) are both non-South Asian, tracing instead to Central Europe and the Balkans.
And yet — despite being over 80% European by DNA, I'm often labeled “Indian” or “slumdog” by others, not because I strongly resemble a typical Indian person, but because I’m known to be Roma. Meanwhile, some of my maternal relatives — who are less mixed — do visually resemble tribal or low-caste Indian populations more closely.
2. Phenotype Dominance & Founder Effects
This paradox — being mostly European genetically but read as “non-European” — is common among Roma. Why?
- The founder effect: Roma descend from a small group of migrants from India, likely of low-caste or tribal background, with distinctive traits.
- These features (e.g., dark skin, broad nose, almond eyes) are phenotypically dominant, even when genetically diluted over generations.
- So a person like me — with only ~10% Indian DNA — can still visibly reflect those ancestral traits if they were expressed strongly in my lineage.
Meanwhile, some Sinti in Germany, despite sharing Roma roots, look fully German. Yet all are still socially lumped together as “South Asian diaspora.”
3. Racial Classification Systems Are Inadequate
In systems like the U.S. or UK, Roma are usually classified as “White” — though:
- We have South Asian ancestral roots
- We often face non-white racial treatment
- Many of us don’t phenotypically pass as European
Some propose that Roma should be listed under “Asian” (like Indians), or perhaps as a distinct ethnic group, like “Hispanic” is treated in the U.S.
Here’s the irony:
This asymmetry reflects power, history, and phenotype — not biology.
4. Lived Experience > DNA Percentages
Despite my predominantly European genetic profile, I’m sometimes mocked as “Indian,” “slumdog,” or “from Calcutta.” These aren’t assessments of my appearance — they’re racial reactions to my identity.
It’s not about what I look like, but what people think my blood says I am.
Meanwhile, I’ve noticed I can pass visually in many parts of Europe (e.g., Balkans, Hungary, Italy), but the moment my Roma background is known, I become “the other.”
Final Thought
Roma identity — like race itself — is not defined by clean genetic categories. It’s a mosaic of ancestry, visibility, stigma, and history.
I am not fully South Asian, and I don’t entirely “look it.”
I am not fully European, though I’m genetically mostly so.
I am Roma — and that means navigating a space where race, culture, and blood do not always agree.
Let me know what you think — or share your own experience if you’ve ever felt like you “almost pass,” but not quite.
Would you like a shorter version of this for use on social media or another forum that limits characters?
