Problem with Cantor's Diagonalization Proof.

talanum1

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Cantor supposes we may make an infinite list of real numbers between 0 and 1 and pair them with Natural Numbers. Then he supposes we make another real number by changing digits along a diagonal in the list. We take the first digit of the first number and change it, take the second digit from the second number and add one to it, and so on. Then he says that we constructed a number not on the list.

My objection is that in order to conclude this we must be able to state that the digit at infinity of the infinite numbered real number got taken and changed. But "digit at infinity" and "infinite numbered real number" is undefined.
 
One can also not say: "change the n'th digit by adding one and then let n tend to infinity." because the "tending to" operations operand must be specified and the process will never end: the operand at infinity must actually be evaluated.

We don't have access to the digit at infinity.
 
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Cantor supposes we may make an infinite list of real numbers between 0 and 1 and pair them with Natural Numbers. Then he supposes we make another real number by changing digits along a diagonal in the list. We take the first digit of the first number and change it, take the second digit from the second number and add one to it, and so on. Then he says that we constructed a number not on the list.

My objection is that in order to conclude this we must be able to state that the digit at infinity of the infinite numbered real number got taken and changed. But "digit at infinity" and "infinite numbered real number" is undefined.
Infinity represents the interface with the 4th spatial dimension
 
One can also not say: "change the n'th digit by adding one and then let n tend to infinity." because the "tending to" operations operand must be specified and the process will never end: the operand at infinity must actually be evaluated.

We don't have access to the digit at infinity.
It is division by zero
 
Cantor supposes we may make an infinite list of real numbers between 0 and 1 and pair them with Natural Numbers. Then he supposes we make another real number by changing digits along a diagonal in the list. We take the first digit of the first number and change it, take the second digit from the second number and add one to it, and so on. Then he says that we constructed a number not on the list.

My objection is that in order to conclude this we must be able to state that the digit at infinity of the infinite numbered real number got taken and changed. But "digit at infinity" and "infinite numbered real number" is undefined.

With all due respect ... the set of real numbers forms a vector space, whereas the set of natural numbers do not ... so there's no "one and only one" correspondence ... the problem is your "zero" value; it's a whole number, but not a natural number ...

Besides, if we've paired every real number ... how do we "make another real number"? ... just changing digits gives us a real number we've already used ... assuming you've paired the real number zero with a non-zero natural number ...

You need to read through your LinAlgebra notes again ... you're doing something terribly wrong here ...

A quick note ... dividing by zero is said to be "undefined over the reals" ... we can define it as infinity, but then what would zero divided by zero be? ... in probability, it's zero ... we have zero chance of success if we never try ...
 
All Is Lava

The Big Bang was an eruption from a Black Hole in the 4th spatial dimension. The Postclassical Quacks' "Singularity" is an impossible concentration.

... and that's why it's okay to throw house cats into black holes ... they have access to the w-axis and can escape easily ...

"I wish you wouldn't keep appearing and vanishing so suddenly: you make one quite giddy."
 
Cantor supposes we may make an infinite list of real numbers between 0 and 1 and pair them with Natural Numbers. Then he supposes we make another real number by changing digits along a diagonal in the list.

WTF are you talking about?

Cantor's proof is that such a correspondence can NOT be constructed.

We take the first digit of the first number and change it, take the second digit from the second number and add one to it, and so on. Then he says that we constructed a number not on the list.

Look into Quine's New Foundations.

My objection is that in order to conclude this we must be able to state that the digit at infinity of the infinite numbered real number got taken and changed. But "digit at infinity" and "infinite numbered real number" is undefined.

It has nothing to do with infinity. It has to do with what constitutes a set and what does not.
 
This is especially acute because we have wrong intuition about infinity.
No we don't.

Cantor simply proved that there is more than one kind of infinity.

It was Alan Turing who translated Cantor's intuition into concrete terms.

Do you know what a Depth First Search is? Algorithms 101 - Google DFS.

If you try to do a DFS on the real numbers, it will fail. That is, it will "always" find a real between two reals.

Whereas, if you try that same trick on the integers, it will succeed - for example, there is no other integer between 10 and 11.

Practically speaking even the latter solution is intractable on a digital computer, because of the time it takes to count the successes. But that's something totally different from failing to return to the starting point.

Practically speaking these problems can be addressed on a quantum computer "with a high degree of certainty". Which is not a proof (Goedel already showed the continuum hypothesis is unprovable).

Infinity is not poorly defined, it is MULTIPLY defined. The infinity of projective geometry is different from the infinity of set theory, related by a confusing and often ambiguous process called "compactification". The result of a compactification depends on how many points you add to the set, and there can be multiple points at infinity, and often they can be parametrized.
 
It has nothing to do with infinity. It has to do with what constitutes a set and what does not.
It has to do with infinity: infinity is explicitly mentioned! The set of all numerable real numbers is also a set.
 
... and that's why it's okay to throw house cats into black holes ... they have access to the w-axis and can escape easily ...

"I wish you wouldn't keep appearing and vanishing so suddenly: you make one quite giddy."
Shredding Shreck Schrödinger

They will be half crushed and half expanded.
 
Shredding Shreck Schrödinger

They will be half crushed and half expanded.

Unless they are being observed ... then they are either all crushed or all expanded ...

“All right,” said the Cat; and this time it vanished quite slowly, beginning with the end of the tail, and ending with the grin, which remained some time after the rest of it had gone.
 
15th post
It has to do with infinity: infinity is explicitly mentioned!

But that tells us nothing.

If infinity is multiply defined, the question is whether there are "degrees" of infinity or merely multiple "types".

It depends on how you define infinity. One concept is "larger than the largest number", so on the number line you have + and - infinity. Another concept has to do with distance (norm) and it means "sufficiently far away". In this case + infinity is the same as - infinity, all infinities are the same.

Cantor's contribution is showing these concepts are related numerically by a simple equation. Cantor intuitively explored recursive processes ("dynamic programming"), in his examples you can find many versions of DFS and BFS along with explanations for why they differ.

The set of all numerable real numbers is also a set.

Does the set have a topology? Is it compact? There are reasons why people want to add points at infinity.

You get some peculiar behavior when you add points at infinity. For instance an Alexandroff 1-point compactification changes a real interval into a circle. You can now describe it with complex numbers, and it has commutative and non-commutative projection symmetries. How many times can you go around the circle? Count, starting at 1, the result is aleph 0, a "countable" infinity. This result, is what most people think of when they think of infinity. "A very large number, a number so big it's greater than anything you can write down".

"Numerable" means you can write it down. So by definition, we have to add a point at infinity to the set of reals. But when we do this, we change our real interval into a circle. UNLESS, we add two points at infinity, instead of just one. If we distinguish + and - infinity then our real interval can remain an interval (it is merely "extended").
 
Your doubts about Cantor's diagonal argument touch on deep philosophical and mathematical points about infinity and the nature of infinite lists. Let's unpack this carefully. :)

👉 Key points in your objection:

You focus on the fact that an "infinite numbered" real number and the "digit at infinity" are not well-defined concepts in standard mathematics.

You note that the diagonal construction depends on changing the nth digit of the nth number, for all n, and question what it means to do this "at infinity."

You observe that there is never a "final" or "bottom" of the infinite list that one could reach to finish the diagonalization, so how can the new number constructed be claimed to differ from every number?

👉 How Cantor's argument actually addresses this:

Infinite lists and infinity as a completed totality:
Cantor works with infinite sequences as completed objects, not as a process or until reaching a last element. The list is conceptually infinite but assumed as a complete entity indexed by natural numbers.

Constructing the new number digit-by-digit:
The construction of the new number does not require reaching a "digit at infinity". Instead, for each finite position nnn, we specify the nnnth digit of the new number by looking at the nnnth digit of the nnnth number on the list and changing it. This defines the new number fully as an infinite sequence of digits — each digit is defined at a finite step.

No need to "complete" the process physically:
The proof is not about actually traversing all digits; it relies on the nature of infinite sequences — which are accepted as mathematical objects distinct from finite sequences. The infinite object is given by its specification for every finite position.

Why the new number differs from every listed number:
Since the new number differs at digit nnn from the nnnth number on the list, it cannot be identical to any number in the list — because to be identical, all digits would have to match.

On the "list growth" or "shape" analogy:
The diagonalization proof does not require actually "reaching the bottom" of the list. Instead, it shows that if such a complete infinite list of all numbers existed, we could construct a number not on it. This is a logical contradiction, so no such complete list can exist.

Summary

Your concern relates to intuitions about infinity as a process or physical traversal — but Cantor's argument treats infinite sequences as completed objects, each digit defined at a finite index. The concept of infinite sequences and their use in modern set theory bypasses the idea of "digit at infinity" — it works with each digit individually, all digits specified by a rule.

sources:

1. Cantor's Diagonalization Proof of the uncountability of the real numbers
2. What is Wrong with Cantor’s Diagonal Argument?
3. Cantor and Contradictions | Dave Kilian's Blog
4.
5. Controversy over Cantor's theory - Wikipedia
6. Cantor’s Diagonal Proof and various misconceptions as to what it actually proves
 
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