Zone1 Our Fine-Tuned Universe: Accident or Intelligent Design?

[Alter2Ego]

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. Precision leaves no room for error or for surprise results. Rather, precision requires deliberation.

Take, for example, the first 60 elements that were discovered on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of those 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms—from which the Earth's elements are made—are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopdia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography)



QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?


2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident, considering that, by definition, an accident causes "unfortunate" results and a spontaneous event shows lack of planning?


3. As concerns the elements on the Periodic Table, provide a credible explanation for why there was no need for an Intelligent Designer/God who caused them to come into existence, considering that all of the elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that the Periodic Table has been assigned the words "LAW"?[/color]

 

[Woodznutz]

Only God can change the unbeliever's mind.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Only God can change the unbeliever's mind.

Woodznutz:

God gives people the gifts of intelligence and free will. It's up to all of us to use those gifts wisely. Jehovah doesn't force anyone to change.

Malachi 3:6​

“For I am Jehovah; I do not change. And you are sons of Jacob; you have not yet come to your finish.

Malachi 3:7​

From the days of your forefathers you have turned aside from my regulations and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you,” says Jehovah of armies. But you say: “How are we supposed to return?”


That's why I reopened this discussion, so that those who wish to use their intellect and their free will-- in a wise way -- will be able to grasp the points being made in my OP and make the necessary change from their atheism.



Alter2Ego

 

[luiza]

3. As concerns the elements on the Periodic Table, provide a credible explanation for why there was no need for an Intelligent Designer/God who caused them to come into existence, considering that all of the elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that the Periodic Table has been assigned the words "LAW"?[/color]

Of course there is no personal designer .
That was just a way of explaining complexity to Sheeple to keep them controlled and happy .
Consciousness is all pervasive .

BUT you might well ask how Consciousness became self aware .
AND what was the source/ mechanics of the urge that made Consciousness want to Create .

Now it gets interesting .
Or , as believers in outmoded Universe physics might say ,
What happened before Big Bang and what caused it ?

 

[Woodznutz]

Woodznutz:

God gives people the gifts of intelligence and free will. It's up to all of us to use those gifts wisely. Jehovah doesn't force anyone to change.

Malachi 3:6​

“For I am Jehovah; I do not change. And you are sons of Jacob; you have not yet come to your finish.

Malachi 3:7​

From the days of your forefathers you have turned aside from my regulations and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you,” says Jehovah of armies. But you say: “How are we supposed to return?”


That's why I reopened this discussion, so that those who wish to use their intellect and their free will-- in a wise way -- will be able to grasp the points being made in my OP and make the necessary change from their atheism.



Alter2Ego

In this, the church age, God calls people into the church. The call is irresistible.

 

[ding]

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. Precision leaves no room for error or for surprise results. Rather, precision requires deliberation.

Take, for example, the first 60 elements that were discovered on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of those 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms—from which the Earth's elements are made—are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopdia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography)



QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?


2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident, considering that, by definition, an accident causes "unfortunate" results and a spontaneous event shows lack of planning?


3. As concerns the elements on the Periodic Table, provide a credible explanation for why there was no need for an Intelligent Designer/God who caused them to come into existence, considering that all of the elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that the Periodic Table has been assigned the words "LAW"?[/color]

The universe popping into existence being created from nothing hardwired to produce intelligence is so improbable that it could have only been an intentional act. After all, it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence. And I can't think of anything more intelligent than a self assembling creation which produces intelligence because the constant presence of mind made it so.

But was it designed? I don't think so. I think it was willed into existence taking on all the extant attributes of its creator.

 

[forkup]

precision requires deliberation.

Precision does not require deliberation, it can arise from natural laws. Snowflakes, crystal structures, and planetary orbits exhibit precise patterns without an intelligent designer. The elements on the Periodic Table follow fundamental physical principles, not conscious planning.

3. As concerns the elements on the Periodic Table, provide a credible explanation for why there was no need for an Intelligent Designer/God who caused them to come into existence, considering that all of the elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that the Periodic Table has been assigned the words "LAW"?[/color]

The elements on the Periodic Table are formed through stellar nucleosynthesis, the process by which stars fuse lighter atoms into heavier ones. Elements like hydrogen and helium emerged from the Big Bang, while heavier elements are created within stars and distributed by supernovae. No conscious planning is needed—just natural physical laws."

In fact, the processes are so well understood that for instance, plutonium is primarily human-made, produced through neutron bombardment in reactors, but trace amounts can form naturally through radioactive decay processes. Its existence further proves that chemical elements arise from known physical mechanisms rather than intelligent design. Nor is this the only example of artificial elements there are a whole slew.

 

[forkup]

The universe popping into existence being created from nothing hardwired to produce intelligence is so improbable that it could have only been an intentional act. After all, it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence. And I can't think of anything more intelligent than a self assembling creation which produces intelligence because the constant presence of mind made it so.

But was it designed? I don't think so. I think it was willed into existence taking on all the extant attributes of its creator.

The universe popping into existence, hardwired for intelligence? That’s assuming intent where none is needed. Improbable events happen—doesn’t make them deliberate.

Intelligence doesn’t self-perpetuate. It emerges from complexity, not some cosmic blueprint. The universe didn’t will itself into being—that implies agency. Physics explains how it evolved, not why it wanted to.

You say it wasn’t designed but willed—that’s still intent. If intelligence was always present, why the shift to a structured universe? What forced it to act?

Patterns in nature aren’t proof of consciousness—they’re the result of physical laws, no divine mind required. The universe isn’t intelligent. It doesn’t want anything. It just is.

 

[ding]

The universe popping into existence, hardwired for intelligence? That’s assuming intent where none is needed. Improbable events happen—doesn’t make them deliberate.

You'd have better luck convincing me of that if you knew what was so improbable about it. But you don't. So you can't really make that assessment without that knowledge.

 

[ding]

Intelligence doesn’t self-perpetuate. It emerges from complexity, not some cosmic blueprint. The universe didn’t will itself into being—that implies agency. Physics explains how it evolved, not why it wanted to.

So you don't think it's the nature of intelligence to create intelligence? We humans seemed obsessed with making smart things.

 

[ding]

You say it wasn’t designed but willed—that’s still intent. If intelligence was always present, why the shift to a structured universe? What forced it to act?

Correct, I did say I don't believe it was designed but willed. And yes, that is intent. Why the shift to a structured universe? What forced it to act? It was a single creation event. Everything else unfolded naturally and logically.

 

[forkup]

You'd have better luck convincing me of that if you knew what was so improbable about it. But you don't. So you can't really make that assessment without that knowledge.

You don’t need to know why something is improbable to assess whether improbable events happen without intent. Plenty of improbable things occur without being designed—I could list countless examples. The burden is on you to prove that improbability equals intent, not just assume it.

So you don't think it's the nature of intelligence to create intelligence? We humans seemed obsessed with making smart things.

So you assume intelligence always creates intelligence? Humans may build smart things, but that doesn’t mean intelligence perpetuates itself universally.

First, you have to prove the universe itself is intelligent before you can even start making that claim. And even then, whales and dolphins are intelligent—they’re not inventing anything. Intelligence exists without necessarily replicating itself.

 

[forkup]

Correct, I did say I don't believe it was designed but willed. And yes, that is intent. Why the shift to a structured universe? What forced it to act? It was a single creation event. Everything else unfolded naturally and logically.

That doesn't answer my question. You explained what you think happened, but I asked why you think it happened. What caused the shift? What forced it to act? If you're claiming intent, then you need to justify why intelligence would make that decision, not just state that it did.

 

[ding]

Patterns in nature aren’t proof of consciousness—they’re the result of physical laws, no divine mind required. The universe isn’t intelligent. It doesn’t want anything. It just is.

Agreed, patterns in nature aren't proof of consciousness. They are proof of order and logic and order and logic is a sign of intelligence. Arthur Eddington wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff. The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time." Which has a metaphysical ring. But if I say that ultimate reality is expressed in the solutions of the equations of quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, and quantum field theory -- that sounds like good, modern physics. Yet what are those equations, indeed what is mathematics, but mind‑stuff?

Humans - and indeed all life - is proof the universe is conscious, as life is a product of creation.

 

[forkup]

Agreed, patterns in nature aren't proof of consciousness. They are proof of order and logic and order and logic is a sign of intelligence. Arthur Eddington wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff. The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time." Which has a metaphysical ring. But if I say that ultimate reality is expressed in the solutions of the equations of quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, and quantum field theory -- that sounds like good, modern physics. Yet what are those equations, indeed what is mathematics, but mind‑stuff?

Humans - and indeed all life - is proof the universe is conscious, as life is a product of creation.

Order exists, but that doesn’t prove intelligence. Natural laws govern reality—mathematical principles explain patterns in nature without requiring a conscious force. Snowflakes form symmetry, planets orbit predictably, and the periodic table follows atomic structure. None of these involve thought, just physical necessity.

Math is not proof of intelligence—it is a language humans use to describe reality. The equations of quantum mechanics, electrodynamics, and relativity don’t create order; they reveal it. Intelligence didn’t impose logic onto the universe—logic is simply how we understand it.

Intelligence emerges from complexity, not the other way around. Life is a product of chemical interactions, not proof of a conscious universe. Order enables intelligence, but it doesn’t require an intelligent creator. The universe follows laws—it wasn’t designed to think.

Eddington’s “mind-stuff” idea has a metaphysical flair, but if we say reality is expressed in the equations of quantum mechanics, we're not proving intelligence, just describing how nature behaves. Math exists because we discovered it—not because the universe consciously willed it.

Bottom line: Order doesn’t need intelligence. It creates the conditions for intelligence, sure—but it doesn’t prove intelligence was the architect. If anything, intelligence is just a passenger in the universe’s ride—not the driver.

 

[Donald H]

This topic isn't a place for intelligent Christians who understand that life on earth evolved to suit the environment.

The Catholic church understood that and then accepted evolution, because it realized that it could no longer live with the creation lies.

Adapt.

 

[Sunni Man]

Of course the universe was created by Intelligent Design.
To think it just somehow appeared is illogical

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

M A T R I X

We're in a simulation. You can kiss the baby on that.

 

[Donald H]

For the Christians who are willing to compromise their intelligence for jesus and his dad:

When the notion of climate change emerged over 200 years ago, few speculated as to the impact of rising atmospheric temperatures on biological life. Tens of decades later, research clearly demonstrates that the impact of climate change on life on Earth is enormous, ongoing, and with foreseen effects lasting well into the next century.

Life is evolving!

 

[Sunni Man]

For the Christians who are willing to compromise their intelligence for jesus and his dad:

The entire earth has gone through extreme climate changes before and humans managed to survive and thrive.