Zionists Control You

[Scooter]

As a note to all...the images previously posted at the beginning of this thread are not appropriate and won't be tolerated.

Please limit your use of "shock and awe" in debating to text only. If you need a picture to speak for you, you're likely going to sound shrill anyway.

Thank you for your cooperation.

-Management

 

[Annie]

As a note to all...the images previously posted at the beginning of this thread are not appropriate and won't be tolerated.

Please limit your use of "shock and awe" in debating to text only. If you need a picture to speak for you, you're likely going to sound shrill anyway.

Thank you for your cooperation.

-Management

Wow! I'm in awe. If I'm not mistaken, you actually deleted or moved some horrific propaganda photos? Kudos to you Scott.

 

[Paul Revere]

name me one group that attacks innocent civilians for no reason, because they want to kill the other ethnic group.

It doesnt exist. Nice try anti-semites, But im smarter then all of you put together.

, im smarter then all of you put together.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

This issue has entered the discussion, but what i was actually referring to was in the last thirty years or so.

I mean if wanna go back that far, you can. You can talk about any country, NOT just israel. As far as american goes, you can talk about slavery, womens rights, who knows.

Not a bad point. But i still think, you make your points, way too aggressively paul revere. Which even if you have the greatest point in the world, and your not a bad guy, or anti-semite. You wont get anyone to listen to you being so over-aggressive. Most people including myself will hear you out if you tone it down, and state your case without such vitriole in your tone. It seems obvious, one of two things is happening, either you really have a communication problem, or you really hate israel/the jewish people. Now, I dont hate you either way. But I would be more open to your point of view, if it didn't see so OUT there,

 

[Annie]

name me one group that attacks innocent civilians for no reason, because they want to kill the other ethnic group.

It doesnt exist. Nice try anti-semites, But im smarter then all of you put together.

Tell you what, when you show me evidence that Israel had attacked directly any site that had innocents there as Palestinians have at pizzerias, bars, etc. I'll take you seriously.

Israel 'gained' those lands while repulsing attacks on their homeland. They've given up some in Gaza already, willing to discuss more. What have they gotten for their willingness? (I could put up pics, but that would be gross and I'll assume that the informed can visualize the victims of bombings in buses, schools, restaurants, etc.)

 

[actsnoblemartin]

if i came into a thread with the title, blacks are all ghetto, which is very similar to the zionists control me.

I dont know, you might think , i was a wee bit off.

Can you imagine?, I didnt say you were off, but, will you take my words to heart?

 

[Annie]

if i came into a thread with the title, blacks are all ghetto, which is very similar to the zionists control me.

I dont know, you might think , i was a wee bit off.

Can you imagine?, I didnt say you were off, but, will you take my words to heart?

I doubt that Revere will give you that. You are correct though, in the analogy. He'd like to present all Jews as willing to annhilate all Palestinians. Problem is, it's already well documented that that isn't the case. Most Jews, in Israel, want the Palestinians to have their own state.

Problem is, the Palestinians aren't willing to accept anything that includes the existence of Israel, no matter the boundaries.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Some here are, and some here are not.

 

[Paul Revere]

Tell you what, when you show me evidence that Israel had attacked directly any site that had innocents there as Palestinians have at pizzerias, bars, etc. I'll take you seriously.

Israel 'gained' those lands while repulsing attacks on their homeland. They've given up some in Gaza already, willing to discuss more. What have they gotten for their willingness? (I could put up pics, but that would be gross and I'll assume that the informed can visualize the victims of bombings in buses, schools, restaurants, etc.)

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html
http://judicial-inc.biz/Israel_in_Iraq.htm
http://www.ussliberty.org/
http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/
http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm
http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-pilger110903.htm
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0390/9003017.htm
http://judicial-inc.biz/False_Flags_summary.htm

 

[Paul Revere]

Tell you what, when you show me evidence that Israel had attacked directly any site that had innocents there as Palestinians have at pizzerias, bars, etc. I'll take you seriously.

Israel 'gained' those lands while repulsing attacks on their homeland. They've given up some in Gaza already, willing to discuss more. What have they gotten for their willingness? (I could put up pics, but that would be gross and I'll assume that the informed can visualize the victims of bombings in buses, schools, restaurants, etc.)

MORE:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4nR34ib6_8&mode=related&search[/ame] (FOX NEWS)
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw[/ame]
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/anthraxsuspect.html
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuNp4[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo2HW4T7wK4[/ame]
http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch?v=aIElY7RtY4A
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5870035070268267024&q=Israel+terror&hl=en
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html

PHOTOS:

 

[Annie]

MORE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4nR34ib6_8&mode=related&search (FOX NEWS)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/anthraxsuspect.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuNp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo2HW4T7wK4
http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch?v=aIElY7RtY4A
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5870035070268267024&q=Israel+terror&hl=en
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html

PHOTOS:

All propaganda. I could do the same from Zionist sites, but I'm not a Zionist. You however have now provided enough to say you are truly a fuktard.

 

[Paul Revere]

All propaganda. I could do the same from Zionist sites, but I'm not a Zionist. You however have now provided enough to say you are truly a fuktard.

Bull Shit!!! You responded mere minutes after I posted it. SO YOU DIDN'T BOTHER TO EXAMINE ANY OF IT!!!
You have your itty bitty narrow mind made up and nothing is going to come between you and your intolerance of the truth shared by your collective of neo-con wanna-be friends.

 

[Shogun]

I choose to ignore the riffraff and continue our conversation...




seems that the act of suicide as a rebuttal according to a perspective in a conflict was not invented by pals...


Report: British Fighter Pilots Asked to Consider Suicide Mission Against Terrorists

"These are decisions which, however unlikely and dreadful, service people may have to make and it is one of many reasons why the British people hold them in such high esteem," said a ministry spokesman, on condition of anonymity in line with policy.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,263500,00.html


notice anything similar to the heroification of suicide bombers and japanese kamakazes?

 

[Shogun]

"Hmm. I agree with you, but this was not only america, Europe, I can name atleast france and britain, as doing the same. But I was talking about in the last 20 years or so. But your argument does make more sense."

I would argue that the reality of our current situation cannot be limited to considering a small comfortable window in history. Indeed, including europe in the debate seems to clarify that nothing we see in Israel is unique but an obvious pattern of actions and reactions that can be untangled like an obstinant knot if that were really the desire of those involved.



"Sadly Japan and turkey wont apologize for their sins, and im sure how much america has truly apologize to their natives, and africans."

Indeed. It is both a sad testement to the reality of social darwinism and proof that it is possible to change the scenery via death.. But I have to ask, is the reality of social genocide more acceptable if one identifies with the end product and allows it to take place at a slower rate than, say, a more immediate final solution? Would Israel shrug off the elimination of pals like Americans now shrug off the elimination of the native americans? Even if the answer is no, how many pals imagine such to be the case when taking toll of their living consitions? Isnt this type of social restrictions and pressure the exact reason civil rights came to a head and gave us all those fun "water hose and attack dog" riots?

 

[Shogun]

"True, but i was trying to make a point, even if i may have done it poorly, which is, Im not sure how many palestinians want a state, and how many just want the jews in the sea. Im the not the best communicator lol "


Fair enough.. I can see how jews are automatically on guard and protective of Israel. But, can you see where the same thing ALSO applies to jews in Israel who enjoy the current upper hand? I guess I believe that humanty, as an entire population, shares a basic common desire for peace and consideration. Look at ruby ridge in the 90s. Americans were driven to react violently to percieved inconsideration by the federal govt. I divorce similar patterns of behaviour from specific ethnicity because similar patterns of behaviour can be found accross a range of races and cultures. Thus, the question becomes how to circumvent the sins of earlier centuries.




"Im all for equality, and I support your idea, of giving the pals, something besides jihad to fight for, and thats a great state, next to the jews. "

a great state is symbolic and falls behind the basics of lifes necessities. People need to be able to eat and not live like third worlders before they get motivated to listen. I don't believe that the majority of pals, if given the choice, would ignore blatant efforts by israel to lift their state if they are given tangible evidence instead of rhetoric that doesn't match walls and bulldozers coming their way. I agree, the settlements are a thorn in the shoe and, to many, indicative of some motivations found in Israel that are not reassuring to pals.




"No, i guess they didnt"

Would Israel have insisted upon continueing the businesses set up in jerusalem BEFORE the state of Israel or did they wipe their own chalkboard clean and start fresh with their own motivations.. The difference, as I see it, being that jews were motivated by a desire for a homeland while the pals were motivated by what they percieve as usurping of land and power which led to the same type of violent reactions that gave America scalping injuns. Any which way it is sliced it is still a bitter pill to swallow being forcibly removed from land that your grandfather lived on. I mean, it's not as if we Americans are about to hand back our land to the natives any more than Atzlan will ever become a reality without bloodshed. If we can move beyond the initial percieved injury and acknowledge current reality is it possible to create an actual symbiotic environment that re-aligns the motivations of pals and jews sharing the same space? I would say yes... but there is a lot of blind team chearleading to get beyond. point in case: Look how this conversation began and how it is now... including the collected riffraff.



"See, I think the problem is, you do have some, I dont know the percentage, that would rather die, then live to make a peaceful, positive palestine."


likewise, how many would rather die than share what is percieved as a gift from god? Or those who enjoy the upper hand and protection from the west? I would argue that blacks stopped rioting after the 60s until, when their faith in the system again was tested, rodney king got his ass beat by cops. a VALID concern if not a valid reaction to the aquital of these cops despite video evidence. but, if you are desperate and feel that you are being ignored... well, it's everywhere in history. It is no tthat blacks wanted to destroy and chaffe American society so much as they were reacting to a percieved purposful inconsideration of the reality of their stndard of living.




"Let me put it this way, what other choice?, or what other alternative, if any, could you please suggest, besides the security wall?. I mean that with all sincerity, because i understand your point, and i feel for the palestinians, having to go through 18,000 checkpoints a day, and taking 4 hours to get somewhere that should take ten minutes. I understand, that sucks!. "


Any number of things. begin with the basics. If israel made an effort to draw up their territory and end the expansions I think that would be a great start. Respect the pal right to be there if you expect the same. Ihate to say it but consumerism is a helluva tool. Use the lessons from americas MTV generation to appeal to the next generation of pals. position industructable TV kiosks at key locations to convey the fruits of peace and entice the desire for achievement and legitimate national identity in the dawn of a new century. create a system of trade education applicable to an infrastructure. Hell, create a defendable pal city where those who ARE interested in peace and advancement can go to grow like minded pals. Sidestep the mideast vs west and do like the romans did: assimilate locals ideal with our own. Hell, do you think that 100 years ago ANYONE would have considered the majority of white youth that idolizes and emulates black culture? Can you imagine when the same thing happens in Israel? If you will it, it is no dream.. yes?



"I am worried, that some of the palestinians do not have the logical tools, that we do, that jihad to them is more important then life, and anyone, meaning any good muslim who dares stand up to them, will be killed, and to me, the best thing the u.s. can do is support democracy in iran, and palestine, that is a good, noble thing, maybe not through military, but surely other ways no?"


Come on.... I wouldnt say that jews lack the mental faculties like I have and so, too, should you refrain from statements like this. THIS is the type of thing that feeds the flame instead of applying the salve. could the phrase "........ is more important to them than life" apply to a myriad of cultures and motivations? Including our own soldiers (democracy and American way of life is...), jews in Israel (Israel and the consolidated hebrew homeland is...) all the way to simple greed and wealth? Jihad means struggle. nothing less, nothing more. Dont we ALL have struggles with which we identify? Is it more important to fear a word than to remove the struggle? Again, see my solution of a defendable bastion of modern pals. Remove those who want peace from those who dont and grow from a location.. Hell, wouldnt that also remove the target from israel and refocus it on said bastion anyway? This forces pal against pal instead of pal against jew and defines those who want to play from those who want to kill. Even Iran held elections. Jeez.. what a first step.




"What if we give palestinians every reason to stop terrorism, stop jihad, and they wont take it, what then?."


then you realign your strategy and try again instead of writing off humans and damning them as if they deserve it. Sure, some will.... but many wont. Is it ok to shrug off 40 if 60 are hostile? such rhetorical statements strike me as simple defeatism meant to derail any reason to make a humanitarian effort. Besides, even if they DONT accept peace under a specific strategy... thwy will still be there blowing shit up, which, is another generation of violence that leads to killing them off like Americans did with its natives. the natives had a valid point about losing their land despite deaf ears in america. This side of our final solution we can mourn those decisions and lament cultures that were genocided off. Is that the direction Israel wants to take?




"Im not for treating pals like shit, im against darfur killing, the rwandan genocide, i have a heart. I want a solution to this as bad as you do, I simply want israel to be able to defend itself, and let them destroy the terrorist groups."

The term terrorist as ablanket label wont create peaceful solutions so much as it gives the "righteous" excuse to genocide those who scalp the white man, so to speak. Falling back on such a mantra is just as dangerous as anything hitlers used to elicit a response from those who supported him. Again, is genocide OK as long as it is stretched out 50 years? At one time whites in america felt the need to "defend" itself from injuns, blacks, irish, and now mexicans. What range of deadly force, and deadly reactions, are the product of ignoring critical thought and benevolent actions for temporary rationalizing?



"You have a good point here. Peace is more important. I do however have one question for you. what percentage of pals want peace, and what percentage want israel wiped off map, how do u stop the percentage or those who want israel wiped off map?."


See above. There is no way of knowing this percentage unless asking them and giving them an equal ground to stand on and prove it. Otherwise, we might as well kill the guy with broken legs for not being able to walk in a strait line. This isnt merely a numbers game. Hell, what percentage do you consider easily shrugged off anyway? What percentage do you consider worth saving? 5% of the pal population? 60%?



"I didnt mean me personally lol"

Indeed, and I did not mean as much.. but, consider this: In light of the similarities between the jewish reason for returning to israel (hisotric homeland) and an arguement that could be made on behalf of Native Americans (historic homeland) who is the world to decide for the US that our claim to the states is any less legitimate now than if a nation of Natives gathered at the steps of washington? Dont the natives have just as much right as the jews to return and create an autonomous nation free of those who have since claimed the land as home? Who is the rest of the world to side with either party? Who are they to decide just how much effort, blood and tears is good enough price to qualify? The united states wasnt created by peaceful solutions. neither was Israel. Neither is Palestine.



"Well it was re-created, first by the balfour document in 1917, then the u.n., established it again in 1948."


Indeed. By the hands of western nations external to those who were actually on the land at the time... Kinda like the Louisiana Purchase, yes? Did the natives on the land say, "ok, well as long as youve got that contract from a foreign nation..."? no. neither are pals who see the creation of Israel as Invalid. Hell, the jews whose house was arsons said the same thing (which, in the end resulted in violence too).. this is not an ideal that makes pals evil for believing. Its how the reality is dealt with this side of the 20th century that becomes important. Hense, a strategy suggested above.



"Of course, I have come to the realization, that criticism of israel is not anti-semetic, I think honestly its such a fine line. Look in america, you cant be against the war, (im not against the war) without being anti-american"


AND some people cling to the ideal that a varied opinion is treasonous. Indeed, how many on the right would charge and convinct those on the left for percieved treason? How many on the left would charge and convict those on the right for percieved human rights violations and warmongering? I am against the war because it was sold to America on false pretences. Some will wrap anything they can around their opinion in order to feel correct. This is done daily on fox news. However, Social Darwinism will work in iraq just like it worked against our injuns. if we can preserve the kurds then we will be well on our way to the same strategy as I suggested above with a defendable bastion.


" we havent been taught how to critically think. To see the difference, even if the line is blurry between a hater, and a critcizer, does that make sense?"

Very much so... In fact, I daresay that American politics is a bipartisan reflection of a human population no longer interested in compamise and livable solutions but, instead, would rather kill em off and let the applicable diety sort it out. Is that calous opinion more or less dangerous than obvious threats and mantras like "war on terrorism".. By the way.. how pompous for terrorism to all of a sudden become a global issue once American soil gets hit? I equate terrorism with guerilla warfare conducted against those who were still using the phalanx and field maneuvering.. Trust me, those who were adhereing to tradition thought EXACTLY the same about geurillas shooting from cover as you do about suicide bombs.



"Equality in what sense. How do we get there?. Im not a muslim hater , used too be. But, im open to any and all ideas you got for me."


Do you believe that you have an equal coverage by the Constitution as anyone else from a different ethnic group? It took white america punishing good ole boy whites to slowly convince (or at least move that direction) that lynching in the south was not going to be tolorated despite an ethnic common denominator. I would argue that, in regards to settlements and other pal concerns, Israel will have to play fair and make it known that no one is favored according to ethnic background. In 2007 it is silly to expect that a white dude should be able to get away with what a jew, or anyone else, cannot. Similarly, this isnt merely a matter of saying that pals just need to stop killing. there are a host of realities in Israel RIGHT NOW that just wouldnt float in America because of obvious discrimination and state sponcored favoratism by ethnicity. Why would you identify and fight for the US if the US were marginalizing your people?

In the immortal words of Mohammed Ali:
Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I’m not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave masters of the darker people the world over. This is the day when such evils must come to an end. I have been warned that to take such a stand would cost me millions of dollars. But I have said it once and I will say it again. The real enemy of my people is here. I will not disgrace my religion, my people or myself by becoming a tool to enslave those who are fighting for their own justice, freedom and equality. If I thought the war was going to bring freedom and equality to 22 million of my people they wouldn’t have to draft me, I’d join tomorrow. I have nothing to lose by standing up for my beliefs. So I’ll go to jail, so what? We’ve been in jail for 400 years.







"Ok. so lets say, just for the sake argument, and fun , that your right, how does israel convince the pals to stop?"

See above. Im positive solutions can be brainstormed similar to what ive presented above. If youd rather launch that tangent then we can try to brainstorm such a solution.





"Yes, i know the first holocaust was not the 1940's, infact turkey killed 1.5 million armenian christians, between 1915-1919. Yes, i should not be so biased, that i cant look at history from the beginning to now."


THAT is the first step. Sure, some will call you names for not towing the line and wearing the t shirt but.. such is the road to peace.





"Still, without a wall, how do israelies stop terrorism?"


by swallowing their pride and walking a mile to understand the root of pal violent reactions while using creative strategy to mend two cultures that is transparently and blatently empowering to those that feel slighted. Again, if I hand you a million dollars you are not going to act in a way that puts you in prison. I believe that any given human majority simly wants to live in peace and will react when such peace is threatened. Hell, its why pals react, its why israel reacts, its why ameica reacted, etc etc.





"I am trying my friend, sometimes i forget how biased, and closed minded i can be. You ever hear the old saying, those who scream racism the loudest are usually the most racist, well unfortunently, i screamed closed minded, and i was the most close minded."

I am no scholar of judaism but the word Teshuva seems appropriate. I can agree with the reason behind such a concept even if not so much the dogma behind it.


Good day, sir.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I understand how you feel. I dont like feeling censored. But. This website is privately owned and operated, and once you signup, you are bound by those rules and regulations.

Secondly, as much as i disagree with your views, you have not been banned for expressing your opinion. Im a jew, and as much as im offended by your pictures of Jews gutting Christian babies in making matzo, you have a right to your opinion, and I dont want you banned for your opinion, However, the moderator does have the right to limit what type of pictures you post.

Furthermore. I think its very intellectually dishonest to say, anyone who disagrees with you, is not seeing the truth. Gurdari, and i may not agree all the time, heck, I may not agree with the way the democratic party is run, but if i were to be arrogant, as i see you doing and say, i have the truth, and nobody else does. Its blatant close-minded arrogance, in my humble opinion. If im wrong, i'll admit, if im biased ill admit it, if someone with whom i normally disagree with says something smart, or has a good point, i'll complement them. People with whom i disagree with, liberals mostly, but sometimes everybody lol, are not evil.

I wish you would try, and quit talking at us, and treating us like were a bunch of babies you have to spoon feed, and treat us like adults, and have a real, honest, open, exchange of ideas with. If its one thing i learn, im not the smartest person on the board, i dont have all the answers , im not always right, hardly, on all counts

Have a nice day everyone, and i will do my best to respect your opinion, even if i dont agree with it.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I would like to say to william Joyce and Paul Revere. i admire you're passion, and the courage you show to stand up for what you believe in, it is isnt always standing up for what everyone agrees with, its standing up, even when your the only one.

Have a nice night sirs.

And to shogun, and katherine, and everyone else i forgot to mention

Its really a pleasure to debate/discuss issues with such intelligent people. we may disagree, but its fun, seeing what y'all think

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Your brilliance shines through shogun

Very interesting, and very correct.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I choose to ignore the riffraff and continue our conversation...




seems that the act of suicide as a rebuttal according to a perspective in a conflict was not invented by pals...


Report: British Fighter Pilots Asked to Consider Suicide Mission Against Terrorists

"These are decisions which, however unlikely and dreadful, service people may have to make and it is one of many reasons why the British people hold them in such high esteem," said a ministry spokesman, on condition of anonymity in line with policy.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,263500,00.html


notice anything similar to the heroification of suicide bombers and japanese kamakazes?

 

[actsnoblemartin]

"Hmm. I agree with you, but this was not only america, Europe, I can name atleast france and britain, as doing the same. But I was talking about in the last 20 years or so. But your argument does make more sense."

I would argue that the reality of our current situation cannot be limited to considering a small comfortable window in history. Indeed, including europe in the debate seems to clarify that nothing we see in Israel is unique but an obvious pattern of actions and reactions that can be untangled like an obstinant knot if that were really the desire of those involved.

Forgive me, if i seem off-topic, but I feel a huge percentage of the world acts as if, the state of israel just gave all the occupied territories back, then all terrorism would end, I may be saying it the wrong way. But my point is, With all current conflicts in the world that involve muslims, I doubt even if the jews packed up and left israel, Muslims aggression against the west would stop. And my friend, the world seems to condemn israel, and not so much the palestinians, or simply do nothing as rwandans were butchered and darfor turns into the same. Even going back to wwII, nobody gave a dam about the jews, nobody cared about the blacks for a long time, or about gypsys, gays, its a vicious cycle of the world doesnt care, its either to biased, or too apathetic.

"Sadly Japan and turkey wont apologize for their sins, and im sure how much america has truly apologize to their natives, and africans."

Indeed. It is both a sad testement to the reality of social darwinism and proof that it is possible to change the scenery via death.. But I have to ask, is the reality of social genocide more acceptable if one identifies with the end product and allows it to take place at a slower rate than, say, a more immediate final solution? Would Israel shrug off the elimination of pals like Americans now shrug off the elimination of the native americans? Even if the answer is no, how many pals imagine such to be the case when taking toll of their living consitions? Isnt this type of social restrictions and pressure the exact reason civil rights came to a head and gave us all those fun "water hose and attack dog" riots?

If your asking me, if i want the palestinians lives to be better, their economy improve, nobody starve, and every one have jobs, (its 12:13am, sorry if im not doing a good job of reading right now). Then of course, I am not saying all muslim are terrorists, but i dont need too, the muslim terrorists kill muslims too.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

(True, but i was trying to make a point, even if i may have done it poorly, which is, Im not sure how many palestinians want a state, and how many just want the jews in the sea. Im the not the best communicator lol ")


Fair enough.. I can see how jews are automatically on guard and protective of Israel. But, can you see where the same thing ALSO applies to jews in Israel who enjoy the current upper hand?


(Fair enough, and too be fair, im not exactly a huge fan of the ultra orthodox in israel.)

I guess I believe that humanty, as an entire population, shares a basic common desire for peace and consideration. Look at ruby ridge in the 90s. Americans were driven to react violently to percieved inconsideration by the federal govt. I divorce similar patterns of behaviour from specific ethnicity because similar patterns of behaviour can be found accross a range of races and cultures. Thus, the question becomes how to circumvent the sins of earlier centuries.

Forgive me, but i do not understand what your talking about. Please re-explain.




"Im all for equality, and I support your idea, of giving the pals, something besides jihad to fight for, and thats a great state, next to the jews. "

a great state is symbolic and falls behind the basics of lifes necessities. People need to be able to eat and not live like third worlders before they get motivated to listen. I don't believe that the majority of pals, if given the choice, would ignore blatant efforts by israel to lift their state if they are given tangible evidence instead of rhetoric that doesn't match walls and bulldozers coming their way. I agree, the settlements are a thorn in the shoe and, to many, indicative of some motivations found in Israel that are not reassuring to pals.

Whom should pay to help the pals, and shouldnt the arabs, admit they have used them as pawns and apologize. Atleast be fair is my point, am i wrong?




"No, i guess they didnt"

Would Israel have insisted upon continueing the businesses set up in jerusalem BEFORE the state of Israel or did they wipe their own chalkboard clean and start fresh with their own motivations..

As far I understand, and i dont claim to be an expert is, jews, bought land, that was basically a dump, with cash legally, and started making it cool. I saw tela viv in 1909, it wasa desert, a pile of sand, and look how it is today .

The difference, as I see it, being that jews were motivated by a desire for a homeland while the pals were motivated by what they percieve as usurping of land and power which led to the same type of violent reactions that gave America scalping injuns. Any which way it is sliced it is still a bitter pill to swallow being forcibly removed from land that your grandfather lived on.


Understandble, I can sympathize with the palestinians who lost their homes, but we must understand how it happened, should we not?

I mean, it's not as if we Americans are about to hand back our land to the natives any more than Atzlan will ever become a reality without bloodshed.

Thats true. I dont think any sane rational person, likes war or terrorism.

If we can move beyond the initial percieved injury and acknowledge current reality is it possible to create an actual symbiotic environment that re-aligns the motivations of pals and jews sharing the same space? I would say yes...

I would agree.


but there is a lot of blind team chearleading to get beyond. point in case: Look how this conversation began and how it is now... including the collected riffraff.

Yes, i was a bit goofy so to speak. But i realize, if im going to ask for tolerance, I better dam well be tolerant of other, even if i cant stand what their saying, I can keep that part to myself, lol.



"See, I think the problem is, you do have some, I dont know the percentage, that would rather die, then live to make a peaceful, positive palestine."


likewise, how many would rather die than share what is percieved as a gift from god? Or those who enjoy the upper hand and protection from the west? I would argue that blacks stopped rioting after the 60s until, when their faith in the system again was tested, rodney king got his ass beat by cops. a VALID concern if not a valid reaction to the aquital of these cops despite video evidence. but, if you are desperate and feel that you are being ignored... well, it's everywhere in history. It is no tthat blacks wanted to destroy and chaffe American society so much as they were reacting to a percieved purposful inconsideration of the reality of their stndard of living.

That makes sense, because I came up with this quote, their is no truth only perception. Because i can tell you he sky is blue, but if you think its green, its green.

We have the same goal, and i think its noble, and we may or may not have differences of opinion on how to get their, but I honor you for your humanity, I am trying to be a kindler, gentler human being, or basically trying to have some humanity, your a good example for me sir.

Which is why i say, all of us on the board can learn from each other.




"Let me put it this way, what other choice?, or what other alternative, if any, could you please suggest, besides the security wall?. I mean that with all sincerity, because i understand your point, and i feel for the palestinians, having to go through 18,000 checkpoints a day, and taking 4 hours to get somewhere that should take ten minutes. I understand, that sucks!. "


Any number of things. begin with the basics. If israel made an effort to draw up their territory and end the expansions I think that would be a great start. Respect the pal right to be there if you expect the same. Ihate to say it but consumerism is a helluva tool. Use the lessons from americas MTV generation to appeal to the next generation of pals. position industructable TV kiosks at key locations to convey the fruits of peace and entice the desire for achievement and legitimate national identity in the dawn of a new century. create a system of trade education applicable to an infrastructure. Hell, create a defendable pal city where those who ARE interested in peace and advancement can go to grow like minded pals. Sidestep the mideast vs west and do like the romans did: assimilate locals ideal with our own. Hell, do you think that 100 years ago ANYONE would have considered the majority of white youth that idolizes and emulates black culture? Can you imagine when the same thing happens in Israel? If you will it, it is no dream.. yes?



"I am worried, that some of the palestinians do not have the logical tools, that we do, that jihad to them is more important then life, and anyone, meaning any good muslim who dares stand up to them, will be killed, and to me, the best thing the u.s. can do is support democracy in iran, and palestine, that is a good, noble thing, maybe not through military, but surely other ways no?"


Come on.... I wouldnt say that jews lack the mental faculties like I have and so, too, should you refrain from statements like this. THIS is the type of thing that feeds the flame instead of applying the salve. could the phrase "........ is more important to them than life" apply to a myriad of cultures and motivations? Including our own soldiers (democracy and American way of life is...), jews in Israel (Israel and the consolidated hebrew homeland is...) all the way to simple greed and wealth? Jihad means struggle. nothing less, nothing more. Dont we ALL have struggles with which we identify? Is it more important to fear a word than to remove the struggle? Again, see my solution of a defendable bastion of modern pals. Remove those who want peace from those who dont and grow from a location.. Hell, wouldnt that also remove the target from israel and refocus it on said bastion anyway? This forces pal against pal instead of pal against jew and defines those who want to play from those who want to kill. Even Iran held elections. Jeez.. what a first step.




"What if we give palestinians every reason to stop terrorism, stop jihad, and they wont take it, what then?."


then you realign your strategy and try again instead of writing off humans and damning them as if they deserve it. Sure, some will.... but many wont. Is it ok to shrug off 40 if 60 are hostile? such rhetorical statements strike me as simple defeatism meant to derail any reason to make a humanitarian effort. Besides, even if they DONT accept peace under a specific strategy... thwy will still be there blowing shit up, which, is another generation of violence that leads to killing them off like Americans did with its natives. the natives had a valid point about losing their land despite deaf ears in america. This side of our final solution we can mourn those decisions and lament cultures that were genocided off. Is that the direction Israel wants to take?




"Im not for treating pals like shit, im against darfur killing, the rwandan genocide, i have a heart. I want a solution to this as bad as you do, I simply want israel to be able to defend itself, and let them destroy the terrorist groups."

The term terrorist as ablanket label wont create peaceful solutions so much as it gives the "righteous" excuse to genocide those who scalp the white man, so to speak. Falling back on such a mantra is just as dangerous as anything hitlers used to elicit a response from those who supported him. Again, is genocide OK as long as it is stretched out 50 years? At one time whites in america felt the need to "defend" itself from injuns, blacks, irish, and now mexicans. What range of deadly force, and deadly reactions, are the product of ignoring critical thought and benevolent actions for temporary rationalizing?



"You have a good point here. Peace is more important. I do however have one question for you. what percentage of pals want peace, and what percentage want israel wiped off map, how do u stop the percentage or those who want israel wiped off map?."


See above. There is no way of knowing this percentage unless asking them and giving them an equal ground to stand on and prove it. Otherwise, we might as well kill the guy with broken legs for not being able to walk in a strait line. This isnt merely a numbers game. Hell, what percentage do you consider easily shrugged off anyway? What percentage do you consider worth saving? 5% of the pal population? 60%?



"I didnt mean me personally lol"

Indeed, and I did not mean as much.. but, consider this: In light of the similarities between the jewish reason for returning to israel (hisotric homeland) and an arguement that could be made on behalf of Native Americans (historic homeland) who is the world to decide for the US that our claim to the states is any less legitimate now than if a nation of Natives gathered at the steps of washington? Dont the natives have just as much right as the jews to return and create an autonomous nation free of those who have since claimed the land as home? Who is the rest of the world to side with either party? Who are they to decide just how much effort, blood and tears is good enough price to qualify? The united states wasnt created by peaceful solutions. neither was Israel. Neither is Palestine.



"Well it was re-created, first by the balfour document in 1917, then the u.n., established it again in 1948."


Indeed. By the hands of western nations external to those who were actually on the land at the time... Kinda like the Louisiana Purchase, yes? Did the natives on the land say, "ok, well as long as youve got that contract from a foreign nation..."? no. neither are pals who see the creation of Israel as Invalid. Hell, the jews whose house was arsons said the same thing (which, in the end resulted in violence too).. this is not an ideal that makes pals evil for believing. Its how the reality is dealt with this side of the 20th century that becomes important. Hense, a strategy suggested above.



"Of course, I have come to the realization, that criticism of israel is not anti-semetic, I think honestly its such a fine line. Look in america, you cant be against the war, (im not against the war) without being anti-american"


AND some people cling to the ideal that a varied opinion is treasonous. Indeed, how many on the right would charge and convinct those on the left for percieved treason? How many on the left would charge and convict those on the right for percieved human rights violations and warmongering? I am against the war because it was sold to America on false pretences. Some will wrap anything they can around their opinion in order to feel correct. This is done daily on fox news. However, Social Darwinism will work in iraq just like it worked against our injuns. if we can preserve the kurds then we will be well on our way to the same strategy as I suggested above with a defendable bastion.


" we havent been taught how to critically think. To see the difference, even if the line is blurry between a hater, and a critcizer, does that make sense?"

Very much so... In fact, I daresay that American politics is a bipartisan reflection of a human population no longer interested in compamise and livable solutions but, instead, would rather kill em off and let the applicable diety sort it out. Is that calous opinion more or less dangerous than obvious threats and mantras like "war on terrorism".. By the way.. how pompous for terrorism to all of a sudden become a global issue once American soil gets hit? I equate terrorism with guerilla warfare conducted against those who were still using the phalanx and field maneuvering.. Trust me, those who were adhereing to tradition thought EXACTLY the same about geurillas shooting from cover as you do about suicide bombs.



"Equality in what sense. How do we get there?. Im not a muslim hater , used too be. But, im open to any and all ideas you got for me."


Do you believe that you have an equal coverage by the Constitution as anyone else from a different ethnic group? It took white america punishing good ole boy whites to slowly convince (or at least move that direction) that lynching in the south was not going to be tolorated despite an ethnic common denominator. I would argue that, in regards to settlements and other pal concerns, Israel will have to play fair and make it known that no one is favored according to ethnic background. In 2007 it is silly to expect that a white dude should be able to get away with what a jew, or anyone else, cannot. Similarly, this isnt merely a matter of saying that pals just need to stop killing. there are a host of realities in Israel RIGHT NOW that just wouldnt float in America because of obvious discrimination and state sponcored favoratism by ethnicity. Why would you identify and fight for the US if the US were marginalizing your people?

In the immortal words of Mohammed Ali:
Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I’m not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave masters of the darker people the world over. This is the day when such evils must come to an end. I have been warned that to take such a stand would cost me millions of dollars. But I have said it once and I will say it again. The real enemy of my people is here. I will not disgrace my religion, my people or myself by becoming a tool to enslave those who are fighting for their own justice, freedom and equality. If I thought the war was going to bring freedom and equality to 22 million of my people they wouldn’t have to draft me, I’d join tomorrow. I have nothing to lose by standing up for my beliefs. So I’ll go to jail, so what? We’ve been in jail for 400 years.







"Ok. so lets say, just for the sake argument, and fun , that your right, how does israel convince the pals to stop?"

See above. Im positive solutions can be brainstormed similar to what ive presented above. If youd rather launch that tangent then we can try to brainstorm such a solution.





"Yes, i know the first holocaust was not the 1940's, infact turkey killed 1.5 million armenian christians, between 1915-1919. Yes, i should not be so biased, that i cant look at history from the beginning to now."


THAT is the first step. Sure, some will call you names for not towing the line and wearing the t shirt but.. such is the road to peace.





"Still, without a wall, how do israelies stop terrorism?"


by swallowing their pride and walking a mile to understand the root of pal violent reactions while using creative strategy to mend two cultures that is transparently and blatently empowering to those that feel slighted. Again, if I hand you a million dollars you are not going to act in a way that puts you in prison. I believe that any given human majority simly wants to live in peace and will react when such peace is threatened. Hell, its why pals react, its why israel reacts, its why ameica reacted, etc etc.





"I am trying my friend, sometimes i forget how biased, and closed minded i can be. You ever hear the old saying, those who scream racism the loudest are usually the most racist, well unfortunently, i screamed closed minded, and i was the most close minded."

I am no scholar of judaism but the word Teshuva seems appropriate. I can agree with the reason behind such a concept even if not so much the dogma behind it.


Good day, sir.