WMD smoke and mirrors, fabricated reason for war.

Discussion in 'Middle East - General' started by DKSuddeth, Jan 7, 2004.

  1. DKSuddeth
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    DKSuddeth Senior Member

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    WMd's were a major reason for justification and it looks more and more like it was either fabricated or a serious breech of the intel apparatus. the article is very long so I've just provided the link and the first section.

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...washpost/20040107/ts_washpost/a60340_2004jan6


    BAGHDAD -- Of all Iraq's rocket scientists, none drew warier scrutiny abroad than Modher Sadeq-Saba Tamimi.

    An engineering PhD known for outsized energy and gifts, Tamimi, 47, designed and built a new short-range missile during Iraq's four-year hiatus from United Nations arms inspections. Inspectors who returned in late 2002, enforcing Security Council limits, ruled that the Al Samoud missile's range was not quite short enough. The U.N. team crushed the missiles, bulldozed them into a pit and entombed the wreckage in concrete. In one of three interviews last month, Tamimi said "it was as if they were killing my sons."


    But Tamimi had other brainchildren, and these stayed secret. Concealed at some remove from his Karama Co. factory here were concept drawings and computations for a family of much more capable missiles, designed to share parts and features with the openly declared Al Samoud. The largest was meant to fly six times as far.


    "This was hidden during the UNMOVIC visits," Tamimi said, referring to inspectors from the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission. Over a leisurely meal of lamb and sweet tea, he sketched diagrams. "It was forbidden for us to reveal this information," he said.


    Tamimi's covert work, which he recounted publicly for the first time in five hours of interviews, offers fresh perspective on the question that led the nation to war. Iraq flouted a legal duty to report the designs. The weapons they depicted, however, did not exist. After years of development -- against significant obstacles -- they might have taken form as nine-ton missiles. In March they fit in Tamimi's pocket, on two digital compact discs.


    The nine-month record of arms investigators since the fall of Baghdad includes discoveries of other concealed arms research, most of it less advanced. Iraq's former government engaged in abundant deception about its ambitions and, in some cases, early steps to prepare for development or production. Interviews here -- among Iraqi weaponeers and investigators from the U.S. and British governments -- turned up unreported records, facilities or materials that could have been used in unlawful weapons.


    But investigators have found no support for the two main fears expressed in London and Washington before the war: that Iraq had a hidden arsenal of old weapons and built advanced programs for new ones. In public statements and unauthorized interviews, investigators said they have discovered no work on former germ-warfare agents such as anthrax bacteria, and no work on a new designer pathogen -- combining pox virus and snake venom -- that led U.S. scientists on a highly classified hunt for several months. The investigators assess that Iraq did not, as charged in London and Washington, resume production of its most lethal nerve agent, VX, or learn to make it last longer in storage. And they have found the former nuclear weapons program, described as a "grave and gathering danger" by President Bush and a "mortal threat" by Vice President Cheney, in much the same shattered state left by U.N. inspectors in the 1990s.


    A review of available evidence, including some not known to coalition investigators and some they have not made public, portrays a nonconventional arms establishment that was far less capable than U.S. analysts judged before the war. Leading figures in Iraqi science and industry, supported by observations on the ground, described factories and institutes that were thoroughly beaten down by 12 years of conflict, arms embargo and strangling economic sanctions. The remnants of Iraq's biological, chemical and missile infrastructures were riven by internal strife, bled by schemes for personal gain and handicapped by deceit up and down lines of command. The broad picture emerging from the investigation to date suggests that, whatever its desire, Iraq did not possess the wherewithal to build a forbidden armory on anything like the scale it had before the 1991 Persian Gulf War.


    David Kay, who directs the weapons hunt on behalf of the Bush administration, reported no discoveries last year of finished weapons, bulk agents or ready-to-start production lines. Members of his Iraq Survey Group, in unauthorized interviews, said the group holds out little prospect now of such a find. Kay and his spokesman, who report to Director of Central Intelligence George J. Tenet, declined to be interviewed.
     
  2. bamthin
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    bamthin Guest

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    Gulf of Tonkin II....

    We never learn.


    -Bam
     
  3. Bern80
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    Bern80 Gold Member

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    Hello all i am new to these boards, lots of interesting topics here.

    Most of the WMD stuff has been beaten to death, but here's my two sense....

    Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe Iraq is roghly the size of california and Baghdad is roughly the size of LA and people keep saying we were lied to about WMD after a mere 11 months and other rants about how slow the rebuilding process is going.

    If you take a look at history the first leader of Germany wasn't elected until at least 8 years after WWII. Hidden bunkers have been found as recently as the 90's (I will try to find sources). And people are upset that we haven't found anything a power has not been restored to the Iraqi people.

    For those who still doubt the existence of WMD...just because they haven't been found doesn't mean they don't exist.

    I'll make you a deal.... I'll take a fifty gallon drum, what i would assume you would store VX or mustard gas, and hide it in california and you get back to me when you find it.
     
  4. Moi
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    Moi Active Member

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    Welcome to the board. Please, next time, warn me that I am going to fall off my couch laughing at your post! Your two cents is worth a million bucks....
     
  5. NightTrain
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    NightTrain VIP Member

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    LOL :clap: :clap: :clap:

    Welcome, Bern!
     
  6. Bern80
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    Bern80 Gold Member

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    I thought it was good.... thought of it all by myself too...i think i'm gonna make it my signature.

    p.s. thanks for the welcome
     
  7. eric
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    Hey Welcome Bern !:)
     
  8. acludem
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    acludem VIP Member

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    A few problems with your arguement Bern. One is that in Germany we had the Marshall Plan, so everyone pretty much knew what was going on. So far the Bush administration has presented no plan whatsoever for the rebuilding of Iraq. Also, rebuilding Germany was a world-wide effort, Bush wants to rebuild Iraq with no help, costing American taxpayers billions, and ensuring huge profits for corporations like Halliburton. Iraq isn't anywhere near as developed as California, so finding WMDs should be easy, besides the Bush administration supposedly had intelligence as to where they were. As far as bunkers go, technology in 1945 wasn't close to what we have now. You can go to your local electronics store and buy a metal detector that will tell you what's underground. No digging necessary. Give me a couple thousand soldiers and some of those metal detectors and I'll find your drum. So far all we've managed to find in Iraq is a 1970s era plane.

    acludem
     
  9. Bern80
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    Bern80 Gold Member

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    1) there are just as many problems w/ your argument, acludem. If we had such a great plan in 1945 why did it take 8 years to accomplish.

    2) Perhaps the reason you are under the assumption that there is no plan to rebuild Iraq is that our wonderful media has no desire to report the progress we are making in rebuilding the country, i.e. rebuilding power plants and schools and providing running water to areas that haven't had any of it.

    3) I don't recall bush ever saying no other country may help us rebuild Iraq, but hey prove me wrong.

    4) You make the typical liberal assumption that somehow making a profit is, in itself, wrong.

    5)I live in Northern Minnesota and most of our 50 gallon drums are made out of plastic. Could u pick me up a plastic detector to please?

    6) speaking of Northern MN you may or may not know that we've had a recent rash of student abductions in the last year, one at the school i attended. The most recent a girl that disappeard near the MN/ND border. The man who abducted hear was caught, but won't say where she is. They are fairly certain however that he didn't leave the state. "A couple thousand" national gaurdsman searched an areas probably a twentieth the size of CA and found nothing. Point being it is alot more difficult to find these things then you make it sound. Saddam was found in a hole in the ground. how many more thousand holes do you think there are to look in? Parts of Iraq are also rather mountainous, another ideal hiding spot.

    6) Why do you assume that Saddam would't move his WMD's from the places our intelligence is "supposed" to be?
     
  10. Johnney
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    Johnney Senior Member

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    Hey Bern welcome to the board.
    you ahve a good argument there. and its true. its a big ass desert over there. metal detectors done go down that far either. so i believe they are over there yet. we jsut cant find them yet
     

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