Which is the shorter distance?

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by flacaltenn, Aug 17, 2012.

  1. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    To most folks, libertarians are just the fussy cousins of Republicans. But the reality is when you measure the political distances, we are equi-distant to both the Republican and Democrat party animals. This is apparent on the 2 dimensional Nolan Chart ---

    Nolan Chart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    that is an improved locator of your political preference over the ultra trivial "left - right" stick chart. In fact, on the Nolan Chart -- we're a smidgeon closer to "moderate" but in reality -- anything but moderate.

    It might get me uninvited from the "Conservative Clubhouse", but I believe the Lib Party is actually closer to the center of the DEM camp, than the REP camp. It's just that there is some INSURMOUNTABLE terrain between us because of the Collectivist leanings and general anti-free market feelings (ala "Occupy") in the DEM ranks.

    Show me a DEM that believes in free markets and economic freedom being as important as social freedom and I contend we're connected.

    We're connected because of the HUGE agreement on the proper use of projected military force, on issues of civil liberties like the Patriot Act, the concept of personal choices in medicinal, educational, personal and health matters, and the entire bill of rights. We also agree on ending corporate government collusion (tho probably disagree on which one causes the other).

    So -- I don't buy the popular knowledge that we are just all Ron Pauls with additional social awkwardness. I see a lot of Moynihan, Feingold, Durbin, Conyers and Kucinich in there as well.

    And except for the mistrust of Capitalism and the proximity to Collectivist solutions, most MAINSTREAM Dems make just as good neighbors as Republicans..
     
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  2. ladyliberal
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    ladyliberal Progressive Princess

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    My impression is that the Libertarian Party is more likely to align itself with Republicans than Democrats. Witness the placement of Republicans Gary Johnson, Bob Barr and Ron Paul on the Libertarian Party's presidential ticket. Democrats might agree with the LP on certain issues, but I haven't seen this sort of alliance between Democrats and the LP.

    As for whether libertarianism is more compatible with the Democratic or Republican parties, it depends very much on how one defines libertarianism. Certainly, I don't feel comfortable telling someone that he can't call himself libertarian because he is pro-life, even though I think it is clear that the pro-choice position is more libertarian.

    And even if we could agree which position is more libertarian, that wouldn't tell us what the correct position is. Virtually every libertarian recognizes the need for some restrictions on individual liberties (recognizing that one person's liberty might infringe on another's). And for my part, I'm entirely comfortable favoring more social liberties than the average American and fewer economic ones (speaking very broadly).
     
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  3. Wiseacre
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    Wiseacre Retired USAF Chief Supporting Member

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    I dunno, the dems seem perfectly willing to start a war or make it bigger than the libertarians do. It was Obama that authorized the Afghan surge, got us into the Libyan war, and has been firing rockets into Pakistan and Yemen and other places. And 115 democrats did vote for the Iraqi war; I'm thinking the Dems are a lot more willing to project military force than the libertarians are.

    Then there's this issue of civil rights and choices, I'd say the Dems are much more in favor of limiting both than the libertarians are. This is an area where the libertarians and the repubs are much more in sync. Surely you know that the democrats are far more interested in restricting freedom of speech and the right to bear arms. They are against choices for education (vouchers), health savings accounts, and privatizing SS. All of which libertarians want.

    And I think you also are mistaken about democrats wanting to end corporate/gov't collusion; They'll say it all day long but they won't do it any more than the repubs will. No democrat will ever vote to reduce gov't spending. They want bigger gov't, more taxes, and more spending. Which makes them polar opposities of the libertarians who want as little as possible of all three.
     
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  4. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Hey -- my favorite LadyLiberal. The one I want to feel closer to ---

    Our recent selection of "pragmatic politicians" certainly doesn't help my argument -- I know. But as a realist -- it moves us from a debating society with no plan for governing into the status of a party that wants to solve problems. I'll wager that Bob Barr for instance has had a "revelation" in terms of choice and freedom once he was liberated from the Republican dungeon.. We've flirted with Howard Stern as well and would welcome ANY refugees from conventional politics that wanted to support the Platform.

    THere are MANY pro-life Democrats in office. Just as we have a number of pro-life libertarians. And it's a recent source of friction for us because it HAS to be addressed. But I'm more concerned about the mess we're in from rebuilding countries other than our own and a Congress that incapable of managing the monster that they created.

    We should really look more at the COMMON IMPORTANT issues that could end America as we know it. Because you CAN'T continue to address social welfare in a broke-butt country.
    Even the far left and labor now knows how bleak things can get when the fiscal situation gets out of hand. And we are breeding a new type of "fiscal conservative" who will largely spring from YOUR side of table. (Once the insurrection and Collectivist Revolution is defeated in November) :D

    THere's also the "leftist dissappointment" factor with finally electing a Progressive to the Prez and getting so little for their efforts. There's gonna be a lot of soul searching in the Dem ranks (and maybe some navel gazing and wrath towards their choice of party as well).

    I believe you'll see a drift in mainstream Dems TOWARDs fiscal responsibility and a blowback against all the class warfare and market negativism.. And MAYBE -- that will move us a lot closer to our buds on the left.. The ones that don't really hate Capitalism and free markets. And believe that freedoms have to be INDIVIDUAL and not so much group identity and divisiveness.
     
  5. midcan5
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    midcan5 liberal / progressive

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    'Character is both developed and revealed by tests, and all of life is a test.' anon

    Interesting I took this version (Nolan Chart Survey) of that test and ended liberal leaning towards statist. But I have to say the many qualifications in the questions was a problem. I would never have used those specific definitions as the choices. It may just be all ideologies are personal mixes as in many ways I am more conservative than most but today would never use that word to describe myself.

    While your OP was reasonable I am not a fan of Libertarianism, it reminds me of a 'I got mine, F you' political philosophy. Every libertarian I know is a young person, usually upper middle to upper class, so it's easy to assume all you need is 'freedom.' I've written a lot about it and will link a few posts. Also see other tests, I am fascinated by the right left brain idea. Watching our grandchildren grow has been a nature/nurture lesson I missed with our own, being too busy with that thing called life and work.

    http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/50564-libertarianism-in-a-nutshell-ii.html
    http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-flame-zone/189696-libertarian-flame.html
    http://www.usmessageboard.com/conspiracy-theories/95300-serious-conspiracy-theorist-question-4.html


    Why I Am Not a Libertarian
    Why is libertarianism wrong?
    http://robertlindsay.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/types_of_libertarian1.jpg

    "You have the ability to use both creativity and reality to process the information you receive. This is a unique gift that allows you to both focus on rules and regulations but to also act with creativity. You are able to adjust to change, even though you might not like it, and you can become emotionally involved in your work if it interests you." Right Brain vs Left Brain Creativity Test at The Art Institute of Vancouver


    Other tests:

    OkCupid | The Politics Test
    Left Right* Hemisphere Brain Processing
    Search Search for
    Morality Quiz/Test your Morals, Values & Ethics - Your Morals.Org


    "Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt in 'Ill Fares the Land'
     
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  6. OODA_Loop
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    OODA_Loop Account Terminated

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    Liberalism reminds me of "He got his, I didnt, take his and give it to me" political philosophy.
     
  7. rightwinger
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    rightwinger Paid Messageboard Poster Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Conservatism reminds me of........Mine, mine....mine
     
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  8. Intense
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    Intense Senior Member

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    You do realize that the concept of Private Property, serves Each of Us, both Rich and Poor. Failing to recognize and distinguish between Right and Wrong, is a Corruption of Spirit.
     
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  9. Wiseacre
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    Wiseacre Retired USAF Chief Supporting Member

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    Why shouldn't you be able to keep as much of what you have earned as possible?
     
  10. Care4all
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    Care4all Warrior Princess Supporting Member

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    Start with humbling yourself, then say an honest prayer and ask God or Jesus for the answer to that question, that is.... if you are a Christian....I trust you will get your answer if you are opened to receive it.

    The mine mine mine mine of the wealthy and other's attitude, is the movement of the antichrist....it can be no other thing....again, that is....IF you are a Christian.

    Globalization of Greed! | Magazine Article | Tomorrow's World
     

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