What Will It Take For Peace?

[toomuchtime_]

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

I think both sides think they will 'win' in the long run so neither side really wants to sacrifice for peace. Until they do the stalemate will continue.

The US could put pressure on Israel but we won't. If the US stationed 5,000 troops on the border their security would be insured and they could accept a peace deal knowing they will never again be invaded.

I don't think that would be a good idea. Many people believe that Zionist Jews control America as it is. I would not want one American soldier dying for Israel.

We have soldiers dying for the Afghanis and Iraqis, I'd think putting our soldiers into Israel would be directly on our interest and if the Arab nations agreed to it, problem solved.

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

I think both sides think they will 'win' in the long run so neither side really wants to sacrifice for peace. Until they do the stalemate will continue.

The US could put pressure on Israel but we won't. If the US stationed 5,000 troops on the border their security would be insured and they could accept a peace deal knowing they will never again be invaded.

Silly stuff. Israel has won and there is no stalemate. Israel has insured its own security and it is safer to live in Israel, including the settlements in Judea and Samaria than it is to live in many large US cities.

Israel still has enemies both inside and outside its borders. Life would be better for all involved if there was long term peace agreement.

Israel has no enemies inside its borders and is more than capable of protecting itself from external enemies so no purpose would be served by stationing 5,000 US troops on its border.

It is simply not possible to make a formal peace agreement with the Palestinians because their leadership is fragmented and no political entity among them can credibly offer peace to Israel. Israel has already solved it security issues to the extent they can be solved and as for the Palestinians, they are just a collection of tribes, clans and gangs with not effective central leadership, so in diplomatic terms, they cannot even be considered a single political entity.

 

[alang1216]

An excellent example of the sort of hatred that dividing this country. (You were being sarcastic weren't you?)

Only total victory will win the peace....

Israel has had several total military victories but no peace.

Of course Israel has peace, peace that it has secured for itself.

The US and USSR never went to war but there was no peace.

They used Israel and the Arabs to test their technology.

Same for the Koreans and Vietnamese in their day I guess. Now it is Syria that is the proving ground.

 

[Indeependent]

Only total victory will win the peace....

Israel has had several total military victories but no peace.

Of course Israel has peace, peace that it has secured for itself.

The US and USSR never went to war but there was no peace.

They used Israel and the Arabs to test their technology.

Same for the Koreans and Vietnamese in their day I guess. Now it is Syria that is the proving ground.

Syria invaded Lebanon and nobody uttered a word.
Iran is invading Syria and nobody is uttering a word.
And Israel is ready to turn Lebanon and Syria into a parking lot.

 

[fncceo]

Israel (like the Crusader states) eventually fades away

Holding your breath, are you?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Generational hatred is not going away without a fight and a defeat big enough to end it....talking is a waste of time....signatures on documents are a waste of time...you must defeat the haters totally and completely....and make them never want to fight again...

An excellent example of the sort of hatred that dividing this country. (You were being sarcastic weren't you?)

Only total victory will win the peace....

Israel has had several total military victories but no peace.

Of course Israel has peace, peace that it has secured for itself.

The US and USSR never went to war but there was no peace.

Of course there was peace.

 

[MJB12741]

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

I think both sides think they will 'win' in the long run so neither side really wants to sacrifice for peace. Until they do the stalemate will continue.

The US could put pressure on Israel but we won't. If the US stationed 5,000 troops on the border their security would be insured and they could accept a peace deal knowing they will never again be invaded.

I don't think that would be a good idea. Many people believe that Zionist Jews control America as it is. I would not want one American soldier dying for Israel.

We have soldiers dying for the Afghanis and Iraqis, I'd think putting our soldiers into Israel would be directly on our interest and if the Arab nations agreed to it, problem solved.

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

I think both sides think they will 'win' in the long run so neither side really wants to sacrifice for peace. Until they do the stalemate will continue.

The US could put pressure on Israel but we won't. If the US stationed 5,000 troops on the border their security would be insured and they could accept a peace deal knowing they will never again be invaded.

Silly stuff. Israel has won and there is no stalemate. Israel has insured its own security and it is safer to live in Israel, including the settlements in Judea and Samaria than it is to live in many large US cities.

Israel still has enemies both inside and outside its borders. Life would be better for all involved if there was long term peace agreement.

Israel has no enemies inside its borders and is more than capable of protecting itself from external enemies so no purpose would be served by stationing 5,000 US troops on its border.

It is simply not possible to make a formal peace agreement with the Palestinians because their leadership is fragmented and no political entity among them can credibly offer peace to Israel. Israel has already solved it security issues to the extent they can be solved and as for the Palestinians, they are just a collection of tribes, clans and gangs with not effective central leadership, so in diplomatic terms, they cannot even be considered a single political entity.

Golly gee, where are all the Pali supporters to educate us what it will take for a lasting peace? Is it actually possible that they agree no matter what Israel sacrifices to them there will be no peace unless there is no Israel? Let us seek the Palestinian mentality of Tinmore & company to enlighten us.

 

[MJB12741]

How interesting now that we have a thread here dedicated to discussing what will it take for peace between Israel & the Palestinians we have no pro Palestinians to work with here. Is this not also the case in Israel? No wonder there is no peace.

 

[USAF 2023]

How interesting now that we have a thread here dedicated to discussing what will it take for peace between Israel & the Palestinians we have no pro Palestinians to work with here. Is this not also the case in Israel? No wonder there is no peace.

How interesting now that we have a thread here dedicated to discussing what will it take for peace between Israel & the Palestinians we have no pro Palestinians to work with here. Is this not also the case in Israel? No wonder there is no peace.

Did you expect anything different?

 

[alang1216]

An excellent example of the sort of hatred that dividing this country. (You were being sarcastic weren't you?)

Only total victory will win the peace....

Israel has had several total military victories but no peace.

Of course Israel has peace, peace that it has secured for itself.

The US and USSR never went to war but there was no peace.

Of course there was peace.

You may want to re-read some history books.

USSR blockaded Berlin, supplied North Korea with arms and probably pilots too during the Korean war, supplied North Vietnam with AA guns and missiles, sent nukes to Cuba, etc., etc. Doesn't sound like peace to me. How many times has Israel been attacked, how many time have they attacked Lebanon? Doesn't sound like peace to me.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Only total victory will win the peace....

Israel has had several total military victories but no peace.

Of course Israel has peace, peace that it has secured for itself.

The US and USSR never went to war but there was no peace.

Of course there was peace.

You may want to re-read some history books.

USSR blockaded Berlin, supplied North Korea with arms and probably pilots too during the Korean war, supplied North Vietnam with AA guns and missiles, sent nukes to Cuba, etc., etc. Doesn't sound like peace to me. How many times has Israel been attacked, how many time have they attacked Lebanon? Doesn't sound like peace to me.

If you are not at war, then you have peace. It's really just that simple. Take Syria, for example. There is no formal peace agreement between Israel and Syria, and Syria angrily disputes Israel's annexation of the Golan and sends weapons to Hezbollah, yet there is peace between Israel and Syria on the ground and has been for many years. Peace is not a piece of paper and peace is not diplomats shaking hands, peace is simply the absence of war.

 

[alang1216]

If you are not at war, then you have peace. It's really just that simple. Take Syria, for example. There is no formal peace agreement between Israel and Syria, and Syria angrily disputes Israel's annexation of the Golan and sends weapons to Hezbollah, yet there is peace between Israel and Syria on the ground and has been for many years. Peace is not a piece of paper and peace is not diplomats shaking hands, peace is simply the absence of war.

How many Israelis and Palestinians have been violently killed since "peace" broke out?

 

[toomuchtime_]

If you are not at war, then you have peace. It's really just that simple. Take Syria, for example. There is no formal peace agreement between Israel and Syria, and Syria angrily disputes Israel's annexation of the Golan and sends weapons to Hezbollah, yet there is peace between Israel and Syria on the ground and has been for many years. Peace is not a piece of paper and peace is not diplomats shaking hands, peace is simply the absence of war.

How many Israelis and Palestinians have been violently killed since "peace" broke out?

How many people have been violently killed in Chicago in that time? Probably more. Israel, including the settlements in Judea and Samaria has half the homicide rate of the US.

 

[MJB12741]

Israel has had several total military victories but no peace.

Of course Israel has peace, peace that it has secured for itself.

The US and USSR never went to war but there was no peace.

Of course there was peace.

You may want to re-read some history books.

USSR blockaded Berlin, supplied North Korea with arms and probably pilots too during the Korean war, supplied North Vietnam with AA guns and missiles, sent nukes to Cuba, etc., etc. Doesn't sound like peace to me. How many times has Israel been attacked, how many time have they attacked Lebanon? Doesn't sound like peace to me.

If you are not at war, then you have peace. It's really just that simple. Take Syria, for example. There is no formal peace agreement between Israel and Syria, and Syria angrily disputes Israel's annexation of the Golan and sends weapons to Hezbollah, yet there is peace between Israel and Syria on the ground and has been for many years. Peace is not a piece of paper and peace is not diplomats shaking hands, peace is simply the absence of war.

What you say can be true. Not at war, you have peace. However how can we all agree as to defining what is or is not war? Is Israel at war with the Palestinians? Are the Palestinians at war with Israel? If either were the case would not the winner just take all & end the war? Although we have no official declaration of war, certainly we have a long ongoing conflict. And a conflict cannot end without negotiations for peace or possibly a massacre beyond anything yet done by Israel or the Palestinians.

I for one deeply regret that it had to take Jordan's Black September to end their long ongoing conflict with their Palestinians. And I sincerely hope the Palestinians stop their tactics against Israel to the point of Israel having to do the same for peace from the Palestinians.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Of course Israel has peace, peace that it has secured for itself.

The US and USSR never went to war but there was no peace.

Of course there was peace.

You may want to re-read some history books.

USSR blockaded Berlin, supplied North Korea with arms and probably pilots too during the Korean war, supplied North Vietnam with AA guns and missiles, sent nukes to Cuba, etc., etc. Doesn't sound like peace to me. How many times has Israel been attacked, how many time have they attacked Lebanon? Doesn't sound like peace to me.

If you are not at war, then you have peace. It's really just that simple. Take Syria, for example. There is no formal peace agreement between Israel and Syria, and Syria angrily disputes Israel's annexation of the Golan and sends weapons to Hezbollah, yet there is peace between Israel and Syria on the ground and has been for many years. Peace is not a piece of paper and peace is not diplomats shaking hands, peace is simply the absence of war.

What you say can be true. Not at war, you have peace. However how can we all agree as to defining what is or is not war? Is Israel at war with the Palestinians? Are the Palestinians at war with Israel? If either were the case would not the winner just take all & end the war? Although we have no official declaration of war, certainly we have a long ongoing conflict. And a conflict cannot end without negotiations for peace or possibly a massacre beyond anything yet done by Israel or the Palestinians.

I for one deeply regret that it had to take Jordan's Black September to end their long ongoing conflict with their Palestinians. And I sincerely hope the Palestinians stop their tactics against Israel to the point of Israel having to do the same for peace from the Palestinians.

I think the confusion comes from the fact that politicians couch the attempts to murder Jews in terms of a nationalistic struggle on the part of these murderers, but unless we assume the Palestinians are mentally retarded they know these acts of violence will not advance political agenda that is favorable to them, so these acts of violence are merely hate crimes. The fact that they are occuring in Israel or Judea or Samaria instead of Brooklyn or London or Paris doesn't change the fact that they are just hate crimes.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What Will It Take For Peace?
⁜→ toomuchtime, et al,

I think the confusion comes from the fact that politicians couch the attempts to murder Jews in terms of a nationalistic struggle on the part of these murderers,

(DISCUSSION CONTRIBUTION)

Yes! For centuries, the mantra of "nationalistic struggle" has been used time and time again to serve as a patriotic justification for "aggression" [one form (or another) of it comes under the mask of Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters] in the application of both conventional and unconventional warfare - relative to the Question of Palestine, which is not uniques at all in history. But at the executive levels of the decision-making process patriotism is the cosmetic used to hide the latent and utilitarian agenda.

Example:

In the '70s, I went to Vietnam under the guise that America was the leader of the free-world and the Vietnam Conflict was our duty to stop the rise of Communism and prevent the domino effect in Southeast Asia. And many American Families (the Greatist Generation) saw it as a patriotic duty to contribute to the war effort in the way that the Greatest Generation (our parents) as they contributed against the Axis Powers in their day (WWII). My father and "all" my uncles (every single one on both sides of the family) did their part. And Congress, in a utilitarian fashion, supported the military-industrial complex in their effort to keep America strong and invisible in a conventional war scenario.​

but unless we assume the Palestinians are mentally retarded they know these acts of violence will not advance political agenda that is favorable to them, so these acts of violence are merely hate crimes.

(DISCUSSION CONTRIBUTION)

OK, there are those that have a recognizable hatred, and fight against Israel over that hatred of religious goals. They fight to guard against the hated religion from achieving their objective (the traditional Jew vs Muslim confrontation much like Saladin in the crusades).

→ But there is another side to the pyramid with the perspective that...

The only thing the Hostile Arab Palestinian has to hold onto is vendetta and the patriotism of nationalist (or Jihadist) struggle. The vendetta in the form that nearly everyone either had a family member killed or wounded -or - knows of someone that in the past was killed or wounded → and they fight to avenge the loss. And the fight as martyrs to achieve support their Islamic values.

The fact that they are occurring in Israel or Judea or Samaria instead of Brooklyn or London or Paris doesn't change the fact that they just hate crimes.

(DISCUSSION CONTRIBUTION)

No question... Hate crimes are real. And the Israel - Palestine Conflict has that component. And it will be tolerated as long as it serves the civil and political objectives.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[MJB12741]

Seems to me the "hatred" continues endlessly from one generation to the next under current leadership on both sides. If so, perhaps only a revolt by the people themselves on both sides against their leadership calling all the shots can someday lead to peace between Israeli's & Palestinians.

The phrase “that government is best which governs least” is often credited to Henry David Thoreau, in his 1849 “Civil Disobedience,” or “Resistance to Civil Government.”

 

[toomuchtime_]

RE: What Will It Take For Peace?
⁜→ toomuchtime, et al,

I think the confusion comes from the fact that politicians couch the attempts to murder Jews in terms of a nationalistic struggle on the part of these murderers,

(DISCUSSION CONTRIBUTION)

Yes! For centuries, the mantra of "nationalistic struggle" has been used time and time again to serve as a patriotic justification for "aggression" [one form (or another) of it comes under the mask of Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters] in the application of both conventional and unconventional warfare - relative to the Question of Palestine, which is not uniques at all in history. But at the executive levels of the decision-making process patriotism is the cosmetic used to hide the latent and utilitarian agenda.

Example:

In the '70s, I went to Vietnam under the guise that America was the leader of the free-world and the Vietnam Conflict was our duty to stop the rise of Communism and prevent the domino effect in Southeast Asia. And many American Families (the Greatist Generation) saw it as a patriotic duty to contribute to the war effort in the way that the Greatest Generation (our parents) as they contributed against the Axis Powers in their day (WWII). My father and "all" my uncles (every single one on both sides of the family) did their part. And Congress, in a utilitarian fashion, supported the military-industrial complex in their effort to keep America strong and invisible in a conventional war scenario.​

but unless we assume the Palestinians are mentally retarded they know these acts of violence will not advance political agenda that is favorable to them, so these acts of violence are merely hate crimes.

(DISCUSSION CONTRIBUTION)

OK, there are those that have a recognizable hatred, and fight against Israel over that hatred of religious goals. They fight to guard against the hated religion from achieving their objective (the traditional Jew vs Muslim confrontation much like Saladin in the crusades).

→ But there is another side to the pyramid with the perspective that...

The only thing the Hostile Arab Palestinian has to hold onto is vendetta and the patriotism of nationalist (or Jihadist) struggle. The vendetta in the form that nearly everyone either had a family member killed or wounded -or - knows of someone that in the past was killed or wounded → and they fight to avenge the loss. And the fight as martyrs to achieve support their Islamic values.

The fact that they are occurring in Israel or Judea or Samaria instead of Brooklyn or London or Paris doesn't change the fact that they just hate crimes.

(DISCUSSION CONTRIBUTION)

No question... Hate crimes are real. And the Israel - Palestine Conflict has that component. And it will be tolerated as long as it serves the civil and political objectives.


Most Respectfully,
R

A vendetta against an entire people is just a hate crime.

 

[Mindful]

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: The claim that an agreement among the US administration, the Palestinian Authority, and the Egyptians to allow the PA to turn the financial screws on Hamas would culminate in the PA’s reassertion of control over the Gaza Strip could not be further from reality. In the Middle East, only armed force prevails.

According to Tzipi Livni, the MK for the Zionist Camp and Leader of the Opposition, not only is there a political solution to Gaza, but this solution could have been achieved as early as in 2009. She claims forcefully that at that time, there was widespread agreement among the Obama administration, the Palestinian Authority, and the Egyptians to allow the PA to turn the financial screws on the fledgling Hamas government, which would have culminated in the latter’s capitulation to disarm as the PA’s security forces took over the Strip they had lost two years earlier.

So great was the consensus among these actors, Livni claims, that this strategy would have resulted in a Security Council resolution. In her view, the only impediment to implementing this strategy was, and remains, Benjamin Netanyahu and his (allegedly extreme) right-wing government.

The obvious questions that spring to mind when listening to Livni are: 1) since when does consensus among outside powers (not backed by facts on the ground) in the Middle East ever matter? And 2) since when was any Security Council resolution worth more than the paper it was written on?

A good place to begin to answer these questions would be the Syrian civil war, the worst outburst of violence to occur in the Middle East in three decades. Countless security resolutions and at least five rounds of intensive negotiations took place between the opposition and outside forces. To what avail? None.

What decided the outcome? Military force: Russian air power, Hezbollah fighters, and Iranian-backed militias for Syria; and 2,000-3,000 US special forces operating with the Kurds as well as Turkish military intervention that allowed the rebels to remain in the Idlib enclave. This is why President Assad is winning but only partially victorious.

There Is No Political Solution for Gaza

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What Will It Take For Peace?
⁜→ toomuchtime, et al,

OK, maybe from your perspective, it might seem that way. My perspective sees it philosophically different.

A vendetta against an entire people is just a hate crime.

(COMMENT)

But a vendetta has three components to it.

◈ TIME: It is over an extended period of time.
◈ PERSONAL: It is deeply personal; with a deeply profound psychological motivation.
◈ UNIQUE: The accomplishment of the vendetta only gives a moral satisfaction to you.​

Hate crimes are motivated by the rush of being the participating opponent engaged hostile against a protected class of people.

◈ THE RUSH: pleasurable feeling
◈ ACTIVE PARTICIPATION: You are doing it to your standard, not the society.
◈ HOSTILE: The is an element of risk, but it is intended to pass judgment on a protected person.​

Hate crimes are not deeply personal but more generalized. I hate GREEN PEOPLE. They make me feel dirty, they get to have my work product for nothing. They have no business here.

Just my thought.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

I do think there needed to be an acknowledgement of the religious perspectives pulsing away, especially on the islamic side, that furthers the conflict. Historically speaking, today's examples serve as well. The Crusades of Islam across the the Middle East and Europe were about land and power and conquest but also of a politico-religious ideology that calls to die and kill for the ongoing expansion of the adherents influence. I don’t think it’s a broad brush stroke to point out the reality we see. Competing religious faiths are under siege in virtually every moslem majority nation we witness. It's not just wild-eyed Islamic killers with Kalashnikovs and high explosives that we have to contend with, it's this intolerant mindset that is the solid underpinning that motivates and inspires this utter disregard for equal rights. It's just as much an ideological battle as a martial one