Debate Now What does Islam contribute to Western nations?

Discussion in 'Debate Now - Structured Discussion Forum' started by Lucy Hamilton, Jun 17, 2018.

  1. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Some of us have things to do. I had to get the cleaning done, and then go for a two mile run and 3 mile hike with the dogs. More important than the internet :p
     
  2. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Who has said that?

    I don't think any religion offers "benefits and assets" we cannot do without.

    What immigrants can offer are hard work (in the US at least, they are usually hard working, multiple jobs, trying very hard to succeed and to educate their children to a better standard of living then they themselves have experienced). Many are entrepenural, starting their own business'. So while it might not be Nobel Prize winners, it's solid good citizenry.
     
  3. HereWeGoAgain
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    I would agree other than the likely hood that a muslim would refuse to turn another muslim in if they planned to commit a terrorist act.
    It happens in Americas ghettos already with the black communities refusal to "snitch" on other blacks for crimes they've committed.
    In other words ......we dont need another class of dindo nuffins.
     
  4. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Yet they do - FBI gets much of it's useful information from Muslim communities
     
  5. HereWeGoAgain
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    I'll admit that some immigrants do benefit society to a certain extent.
    Of course i've never seen a roofing crew of muslims roof a 5000 square ft house in three days like I witnessed last week.
     
  6. HereWeGoAgain
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    You'll have to give me some instances where that happened.
    We already know the family of the Tsarnaev brothers protected them after the Boston marathon bombings as did the wife of the gay nightclub shootings in Florida.
     
  7. eagle1462010
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    eagle1462010 Platinum Member

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    This is something I do not agree with. No one is making that claim and I hate arguing based on false premises. Immigration needs to be controlled. No country can sustain unlimited and uncontrolled immigration whether they are Muslim or some other group. I'm not making that argument and neither are any other leftists I know here.

    We will disagree here. Actions speak louder than words. By agreeing Obama policies of Catch and Release many are practicing what they preach. That is a Welcome Mat as they stay here for many years and dontd show up for court. Sanctuary cities is also flagrant disregard for our laws.
     
  8. eagle1462010
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    I have shown an article that shows large percentage agree with death of apostates and even suicide bombing. That doesn't mean all are like that and it has never meant that. But too many leftist straw man that argument to all. Given that so many think that way and having no real means to read their minds, for they safety of our countries we must reject all. Because those on those groups turn and cause death and destruction for their host countries.

    There are many different versions of Islam. All agree to the 5 pillars, but many take the avenue of to the letter of Islamic passages. They turn Sharia into Juhad and we have a problem. Again we do not have mind cops who can esp into their brains to determine if they are good or bad.

    Attacks in Europe and the world of these types confirm that reality.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. eagle1462010
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    And the challenge goes unanswered to gather dust in old thread memories.............
     
  10. Lucy Hamilton
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    Lucy Hamilton Diamond Member

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    "Do you mean Islam as an entire religion or Muslims as an immigration group?"

    Both this considering that all Muslims adhere to Islam and so as an immigration group bring Islam with them, it is not possible to separate Muslims from Islam they go together.

    "This is something I do not agree with. No one is making that claim and I hate arguing based on false premises. Immigration needs to be controlled. No country can sustain unlimited and uncontrolled immigration whether they are Muslim or some other group. I'm not making that argument and neither are any other leftists I know here."

    Well 99% of Open Borders ie. NO Borders and Pro-Immigration Organisations are either Leftist or Lean Leftist, there are very few if ANY Right-Wing Conservative organisations that actively promote Open Borders ie. NO Borders and Pro-Immigration of the Muslim type, if you support Open Borders ie. NO Borders that is supporting UNLIMITED Immigration and it's the type of Immigration that seems ONLY to be advocating Non-Christian Immigration into Western nations, in actuality a lot of Syrian Christians for example are not even entertained by these Pro-Immigration Organisations.

    "Second thing - and this needs clarity. Are you conflating immigration of Muslims with immigration of Islamists? Those are two different things. Are we talking about Muslims or Islamists?"

    There is a difference only on paper, the problem is that as ALL Muslims adhere to Islam there is a fundamental danger they can and will develop into an Islamist, too many instances there have occur where x Muslim who sell z their newspaper for approx 10 years then suddenly is arrested as being part of an Islamist Sleeper Cell. This is the problem with Islam, that ALL Muslims adhere to the philosophy as instructed by the Prophet Mohammed, it is because of this fanatical adherence that ANY ordinary Muslim can very easily be Radicalised.

    "Muslims come from a variety of countries - each of whom can offer benefits, whether it's in the arts, music, architecture, science, or - simply being good law abiding citizens."

    Yes I know but the problem is you do not know who is the White Hat and who is the Black Hat or when who you thought was a White Hat has become a Black Hat eg. I know of someone who is a Neurosurgeon and for approx six years they had a colleague who happens to be a Muslim and there was NO problem and they were friends and everything was okay until one day they were arrested in a 6AM raid and this because a Sleeper Cell had been monitored and that Muslim who worked with a friend of ours they were in that Sleeper Cell. So how can you determine the White Hat, the Black Hat and the White Hat who has become a Black Hat but you do not know until they are arrested? The situation now is that many do not now trust ANY Muslims.

    "Islam as a religion is harder to say, not because it's Islam but because I don't see any religions per se as offering many fundamental benefits to western, democratic governments - they often seem to be in opposition. But I can see some fundamental benefts and they tend to cross the lines of multiple faiths."

    I will turn this to the opposite situation. If WE all were in an Islamic Nation, would we be tolerated issuing demands that we are given special rights, that we can wear the clothing we have in Western Nations, that we should be able to eat the foods we want to, that we should be able to drink alcohol, that we should be allowed Freedom of Expression to say Fuck Islam, Fuck the Prophet Mohammed, Death to the Prophet Mohammed etc NO we would NOT be tolerated issuing such demands.

    The Muslims come to Western Nations, they issue demands that they have special rights, that their women are covered, that they have Halal foods, that NO alcohol be served in their presence, that they abuse OUR Freedom of Expression and that anyone who even criticises Islam is guilty of Hate Speech etc

    "Islam offers a way of life that is based on belief in God, the giving of charity, and many codes of conduct that promote good citizenry. I'm sure at this point some one is going to bring up a gigantic post of all the war like quotes in the Koran, but if they are fair - they will also admit there are many good ones that people strive to live by. Islam, when not taken to extremes promotes community, caring for the poor, widows and unfortunate, curteous behavior, and modesty (no spandex muffin tops). How Islam is practiced depends on the culture of the immigrant group."

    Which God not OUR God, their God is Allah, the same Allah they slaughter OUR peoples in the Name Of.

    Yes Islam promotes community but a community ONLY for Muslims and Muslim Converts, they deliberately by CHOICE Ghettoize themselves in their own Mini Islamic Nations within Western Nations, I add I am commenting this from purely a Western European perspective, I have not studied how Muslims in America are organised in general although I have read about there in the State of Minnesota it is Somalia v2 and also I have read about what occur in Dearborn in the State of Michigan, both these examples are of huge amounts of Muslims forming their OWN Community of a Mini Islamic Nation.

    "Islam offers art. Cuisine. Architecture."

    This I know yes, but for multiple Centuries we have existed perfectly and adequately in Western nations with our own art, cuisine and architecture, we do not need Islam being Imported to sustain these things for us.

    I have commented many times at this forum about my great admiration for Islamic Architecture and my adoration of Robert Byron's book "The Road To Oxiana" which deals SPECIFICALLY with Islamic Architecture. I have many Persian friends, I've visited Tehran and several other areas including Susa and Shiraz in Iran. I had wanted to visit Iran ever since I read for the first time Robert Byron's book, published in 1937, it's probably one of the best books about travel and Middle Eastern Architecture ever written.

    The cover picture of the book, that is a 1911 photograph taken by A.T. Wilson, Shiraz in Winter through the Qur'an Gate. The Qur'an Gate is in the north of Shiraz, Iran, I can't determine from the picture which mountain that is, it's either the Baba Kouhi or the Chehel Maqam.

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    The Road to Oxiana - Wikipedia
     

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