CDZ What are you worth?

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Boss, Sep 9, 2016.

  1. 320 Years of History
    Offline

    320 Years of History Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    6,060
    Thanks Received:
    810
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    Ratings:
    +2,550
    No, I don't see coercion in defining the consequences. I see coercion in one's having no choice -- do or die -- in being told what one must and will choose and thus having no say about what one chooses. Being in a position where one must pay X or >X for a given good/service is what I call having a choice. Now I may or may not like the choices available to me, but that I do isn't among the promises of capitalism or free markets.

    What you're describing is persuasion, or one could even call it motivation, but not coercion. I realize they are similar, but they are different too.
     
  2. dblack
    Offline

    dblack Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    22,383
    Thanks Received:
    2,173
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +4,644
    I couldn't quite parse that, but it sounds like we're just using a different definition of coercion. Can't really discuss much if we can't agree on the meanings of the words we're using.

    Hmm... I see. Again, different definition. Persuasion doesn't involve threat of violence in my dictionary.
     
  3. 320 Years of History
    Offline

    320 Years of History Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    6,060
    Thanks Received:
    810
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    Ratings:
    +2,550
    Red:
    Maybe....
    • Coerce -- First look at the denotation of the word. (That's what you'll find at the top of the page under "full definition). Then look at the synonym guide you'll find at the link. It'll identify for you the connotation that supplements , not alters, the denotation of the word. (How does one know the information in the synonym guide is connotative rather than denotative? Because the descriptions there say "suggest" not "mean.")
    • Persuade -- Notice that "coerce" isn't synonymous with "persuade." "Persuade" also has more to do with "convincing" than with "forcing."
    • Impel -- I suggest you look at this word too. You'll notice that it contextually connotes an internal motivator rather than an external one as "persuade" does.
    So getting back to your original question of me. I don't think that there is anything "forcing" about the government's defining consequences of a given set of courses of action. One may be forced to pay a sum of money based on the choice one makes between X and Y, but one is not forced to choose X nor is one forced to choose Y. That choice, which is the (buying) decision one must make, is entirely voluntary.
     
  4. Boss
    Online

    Boss Take a Memo:

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2012
    Messages:
    21,194
    Thanks Received:
    2,684
    Trophy Points:
    280
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    Ratings:
    +9,761
    But you're wrong, it certainly is coercion. I should have the free choice to not purchase health care insurance if I don't want to. Or if I want a health care plan with high deductibles to cover catastrophic illness and have a health savings account, I should be able to do that. This is a free country and I should be able to choose choice Z or W or no choice at all, and I shouldn't be punished by government for that.

    What you have with Obamacare is Big Government collusion with Big Insurance and Big Pharma. It TAKES our freedom! It's not a free market solution, it's a socialist solution and it will fail as all socialist solutions ultimately do.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. sparky
    Offline

    sparky VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,329
    Thanks Received:
    329
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    paradise
    Ratings:
    +350
    And are you free to die in the streets beggin' for care Boss...?

    ~S~
     
  6. Boss
    Online

    Boss Take a Memo:

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2012
    Messages:
    21,194
    Thanks Received:
    2,684
    Trophy Points:
    280
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    Ratings:
    +9,761
    Tell ya what... I'll send you a check for $10,000 if you can name one American citizen who has died in the streets begging for medical care in the past 30 years in the United States. All you need is one verifiable example... GO!
     
  7. sparky
    Offline

    sparky VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,329
    Thanks Received:
    329
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    paradise
    Ratings:
    +350
    I'm a retired emt Boss , 3 decades in...

    Of course they are verifiable examples , yours truly witnessed many first hand, but those run reports are confidential , violation of Hippa rules is a major no-no.

    Short , version would be that we exist in a dualopoly in the sense the rich are catered to, while the poor die.

    We love to 'kick a man down' ,per se' We love to blame misfortune on those that are down , all part of the grand delusion here

    But you don't need to take this ol boys word for it, because you can go into just about any quicky mart, and see some sick kid's pix on a coffee can BEGGING for care

    You can deposit your offer in the next one you see & thks

    ~S~
     
  8. dblack
    Offline

    dblack Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    22,383
    Thanks Received:
    2,173
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +4,644
    Yeah, I can't really steer around the fact that all laws are a threat of force. That's what distinguishes them from "requests".
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  9. Boss
    Online

    Boss Take a Memo:

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2012
    Messages:
    21,194
    Thanks Received:
    2,684
    Trophy Points:
    280
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    Ratings:
    +9,761
    No, they don't exist, that's why you can't name anyone. If you are a former EMT who worked in the past 30 years, you had to know about the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act signed into law in 1986 by President Reagan. It made it a Federal crime to turn away any person in need of medical care regardless of their ability to pay. So you have no examples, you didn't run across any examples if you worked since 1986, and there are no said examples or they'd be liberal poster children. I don't see any cans in any stores of sick kids begging for medical care.

    What I see is yet another bleeding heart liberal whining and moaning about health care, 8 years after your chosen president rammed through the biggest health care entitlement we've ever had, that was promised to fix all our problems and give everyone free health care. You people just never stop... it's never enough. It doesn't matter how many trillions in debt we are or how many more trillions we spend, it's not enough to please the liberals. If we took every penny of wealth from rich people and tuned it over to the poor, you'd show up here whining that rich people now look at you mean and we have to do something!
     
  10. sparky
    Offline

    sparky VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,329
    Thanks Received:
    329
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    paradise
    Ratings:
    +350

    None are so blind as those who refuse to see Boss.

    In your defense, we are, as a society, rather adept at this .

    The 'American Dreamers' would never admit we've had a spike in Poverty, and all that follows suit.

    As to your Reganista legislation, you are right in that the medical community can not 'refuse' to treat. But that 'liberal law' has had a generations worth of corporate influence , manifesting badly.

    One grand example are are the 'urget care' clinics popping inversely proportional to the pandemic of ER closings.....why? no JACHO laws apply, i.e.- they CAN refuse patients w/o $$$

    But here's a ems term for you.....Frequent Flyers....they comprise the lions share of ER transports btw. The majority of them thought they had good insurance policies, only to find those little 5th page inclusions didn't quite cover whatever long debilitation they endured.

    The thing about riding the meatwagon is, one is more an ear to these FF's , much like a tarbender if i may say, you see the same faces sporadically updating their status.

    I've heard the stories Boss , people, good hard working people, loose their homes, their businesses , loose everything on their way out

    I've tended the sick terminal kids , trust me in that even the most stoic of us have broken down , only to find the parents broke, in debt, loosing it ALL

    I've attended the fundraisers , when the can's w/their faces just wasn't enough too

    And then run into people like you who believe it was all their fault, THEY did something wrong,THEY chose a bad path, THEY DESERVED their fate, unaware that they themselves could well be the next health care contestant to go the have the system turn you into soylent green

    You all suffer the same grand delusion , it's packaged and sold to you by the very corporatists and political toadies lining their coffers from it all

    Best take yer vitamins there Boss.....

    ~S~
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

content