Torture poll

[editec]

don't be an idiot.

If it's ok for us to torture, why isn't it ok for them to torture?

Us good, them bad?

This poll is stupid.

No it isn't, Gunny.

In fact this turnabout is fair play poll is one of the more intelligent posts that DavidS has penned in some time.

Supporters of torture like to use the example of torture to save lifes as a MORAL justification for allowing torture.

DavidS asks us to put our MORALS to the test to see if our concept of torture as being moral is entirely hypocritical.

Are supporters of America's right to torture (to save American lives) willing to acknowledge that if it's moral for America to torture, it is moral for our enemies to torture our people (to save their people's lives)?

This IS an important question.

Assume that the USA gets into a war and uses torture.

And so does the enemy.

Now assume we win the war.

Do we have the high moral ground to take their torturing leadership to trial for torturing our people, if we were torturing their people?

 

[DavidS]

the enhanced interrogation techniques that were outlined in the New York times were NOT torture.

Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

The Ten techniques are as follows:

Sleep Deprivation: If keeping people awake was torture, then I should sue all my teachers who woke me up during class

Nudity: So now embarrassment is torture?

Dietary Manipulation: If the feeding of nutritionally complete tasteless meals is torture then every school cafeteria worker in the US would be in jail.

Abdominal Slap: My strength coach in High School used to drop medicine ball on our stomachs, I wished he would have just slapped my tummy with an open hand.

Attention Grasp: Oh my god, grabbing someone by the shirt is torture!

Facial Slap: Any guy can tell you a slap across the face, while it stings, is no big deal

Facial Hold: placing an open hand on either side of the face, making sure not to poke the person in the eye. Oh my that's just horrible!

Wall Standing: Yeah and? Shit we did more painful things at football practice

Water Dousing: Cold potable water from a hose splashed on the chest. Come on.

Stress Positions: Designed not to inflict pain by contorting or twisting joints but rather to inflict discomfort and muscle fatigue.

Cramped Confinement: Small dark place, limited to 2 hours. So take a nap.

Confinement with Insects: The person must be told a non stinging,non biting non toxic bug will be placed in the room with him. Those of you who live in New York and have ever had a cockroach in your room were being tortured all this time and you didn't even know it.

Walling: Being bounced of a flexible wall while being provided neck and back support to prevent whip lash. YAWN.

Now here's the big one

Water Boarding: Up to 40 seconds but more like 20 seconds of feeling like you're drowning. Not too bad compared to falling 80 stories amidst a mass of crumbling concrete, twisted hot steel and fire.

So two wrongs make a right? These disgusting animals treated us like pieces of garbage so it's ok for us to do the same to them? It's for us to water torture a man 183 times?

It's not. We're above this. Or I thought we were. I have absolutely no problem with interrogating the subjects, I don't care how uncomfortable they are, hell I would probably want the subject dead... but we have to be, we MUST be, a nation that stands as a beacon of light to the other nations... or then we're no better than Vietnam during the 1970s. No better than North Korea in the 1950s and no better than the Imperial Japanese during the 1930s and 1940s. Are there no other methods of interrogation where we can extract information from the "person?" Do we not have the most advanced law enforcement agencies in the world and we have absolutely NO idea how to extract information from these guys without "simulating drowning" nearly 200 times? I'm not talking about making them comfortable and meeting their needs - these "people" have no rights under the Geneva convention and I'm all for not giving them rights. They should be tried by our military, not our civilian system and then executed. To be held for all of this time... it makes no sense. Get the information - try them in a military court, then kill them. There's no way they're going to have effective operational intel 7 1/2 years after everything happened.

 

[Zoom-boing]

No. Then again, terrorists don't exactly follow any 'rules', do they?

Harsh interrogation for terrorists? Yes.

 

[KMAN]

Do you feel captured American troops should be subjected to torture if the enemy feels they have information on future military actions that would help them save the lives of their countrymen?

Can you define torture?

 

[WillowTree]

so no libral will ever be upset that we bombed the crap outta hiroshima and nagasaki then will they.. torture is off the table,, people can die by the hundreds of thousands yea, even millions, we can kill people in all manner of evil ways,, that's fine,, just don't make them uncomfortable. dead is preferrable to uncomfortable.. Librals have their circuits screwed onto the wrong plates! so I wake up this morning and find on the news the outstanding events in Pakistan.. taliban are going to overrided the Pakistani government and the Pakistani government isn't going to lift a finger.. nukes,, rigth there for them to pick up and use.. Netanyau is PM is Israel,,I gotta feeling the left is going to watch a lot of us die.. but don't mind me,, I got a bogeyman under my bed.

 

[Ravi]

The Liberal dumb asses define it as embarrassment or discomfort of any kind. No loud music, no yelling or curse words, no touching, no keeping them awake, no scaring them into talking with absolut6ely no chance they will be harmed.

Well until one of their liberal cities goes up, then they will turn into a howling mob and hang people.

You're such a liar.

 

[DavidS]

The Liberal dumb asses define it as embarrassment or discomfort of any kind. No loud music, no yelling or curse words, no touching, no keeping them awake, no scaring them into talking with absolut6ely no chance they will be harmed.

Well until one of their liberal cities goes up, then they will turn into a howling mob and hang people.

Where the fuck do you think the goddamned Twin Towers were located you asshat? Alfuckingbama? My city DID go up on September 11th. Those disgusting pukes DID kill hundreds of NEW YORK firefighters and Police Officers and thousands of civilians. Last time I checked, NYC was pretty fucking liberal.

I do NOT support us doing the same thing they want to do to us. We are more civilized than this.

 

[WillowTree]

The Liberal dumb asses define it as embarrassment or discomfort of any kind. No loud music, no yelling or curse words, no touching, no keeping them awake, no scaring them into talking with absolut6ely no chance they will be harmed.

Well until one of their liberal cities goes up, then they will turn into a howling mob and hang people.

You're such a liar.

No, i don't think he is.

 

[WillowTree]

The Liberal dumb asses define it as embarrassment or discomfort of any kind. No loud music, no yelling or curse words, no touching, no keeping them awake, no scaring them into talking with absolut6ely no chance they will be harmed.

Well until one of their liberal cities goes up, then they will turn into a howling mob and hang people.

Where the fuck do you think the goddamned Twin Towers were located you asshat? Alfuckingbama? My city DID go up on September 11th. Those disgusting pukes DID kill hundreds of NEW YORK firefighters and Police Officers and thousands of civilians. Last time I checked, NYC was pretty fucking liberal.

I do NOT support us doing the same thing they want to do to us. We are more civilized than this.

No what you are is more DUmb and more DEad.. and the terrorists laugh at your stupidity.. laugh I tell ya,, you think they admire you cause you won't fight? Jeezus!

 

[tigerbob]

Do you feel captured American troops should be subjected to torture if the enemy feels they have information on future military actions that would help them save the lives of their countrymen?

I'm going out on a limb here without reading the follow up posts, and am guessing you're setting up a point about whether it's OK for Americans to torture but not to be tortured.

If so, what a pointless point.

 

[elvis]

The Liberal dumb asses define it as embarrassment or discomfort of any kind. No loud music, no yelling or curse words, no touching, no keeping them awake, no scaring them into talking with absolut6ely no chance they will be harmed.

Well until one of their liberal cities goes up, then they will turn into a howling mob and hang people.

Where the fuck do you think the goddamned Twin Towers were located you asshat? Alfuckingbama? My city DID go up on September 11th. Those disgusting pukes DID kill hundreds of NEW YORK firefighters and Police Officers and thousands of civilians. Last time I checked, NYC was pretty fucking liberal.

I do NOT support us doing the same thing they want to do to us. We are more civilized than this.

THE SAME? those fuckheads are still alive.

 

[Phate]

the enhanced interrogation techniques that were outlined in the New York times were NOT torture.

Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

The Ten techniques are as follows:

Sleep Deprivation: If keeping people awake was torture, then I should sue all my teachers who woke me up during class

Nudity: So now embarrassment is torture?

Dietary Manipulation: If the feeding of nutritionally complete tasteless meals is torture then every school cafeteria worker in the US would be in jail.

Abdominal Slap: My strength coach in High School used to drop medicine ball on our stomachs, I wished he would have just slapped my tummy with an open hand.

Attention Grasp: Oh my god, grabbing someone by the shirt is torture!

Facial Slap: Any guy can tell you a slap across the face, while it stings, is no big deal

Facial Hold: placing an open hand on either side of the face, making sure not to poke the person in the eye. Oh my that's just horrible!

Wall Standing: Yeah and? Shit we did more painful things at football practice

Water Dousing: Cold potable water from a hose splashed on the chest. Come on.

Stress Positions: Designed not to inflict pain by contorting or twisting joints but rather to inflict discomfort and muscle fatigue.

Cramped Confinement: Small dark place, limited to 2 hours. So take a nap.

Confinement with Insects: The person must be told a non stinging,non biting non toxic bug will be placed in the room with him. Those of you who live in New York and have ever had a cockroach in your room were being tortured all this time and you didn't even know it.

Walling: Being bounced of a flexible wall while being provided neck and back support to prevent whip lash. YAWN.

Now here's the big one

Water Boarding: Up to 40 seconds but more like 20 seconds of feeling like you're drowning. Not too bad compared to falling 80 stories amidst a mass of crumbling concrete, twisted hot steel and fire.

Normally, most of what you posted wouldn't be considered torture. But - most of these detainees were kept awake for 170-180 hours. When your awake that long, your body feels pain much more, little things like slaps and stress positions can be severely painful.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Normally, most of what you posted wouldn't be considered torture. But - most of these detainees were kept awake for 170-180 hours. When your awake that long, your body feels pain much more, little things like slaps and stress positions can be severely painful.

Sucks being a terrorist.

 

[Jon]

I'm the first person with the balls to vote yes. You guys are a bunch of cowards.

The problem here is that I oppose war in general, but in the event of war, I know that both sides are fighting for something. I'm not naive enough to say that our side should be the only one to use whatever means necessary to win.

 

[amrchaos]

If the people of this country are willing to accept that their government has the right to torture suspects in their custody, and ignore international laws and treaties as well as domestic laws banning torture, there is no reason for any other nation, state, or faction to comply with these laws either.
In the future any American held captive outside of this country can be questioned by those claiming authority using any interrogation technique they deem necessary. The term “those in authority” will be interpreted as those claiming jurisdiction in the location at the time of the interrogation.

Meanwhile Muslim Terrorists routinely just MURDER captives, usually by beheading them. But hey that is JUST fine with you dumb asses. Remind me how international law applies to none State terrorists. I saw in the future to solve this problem we just announce all captured Terrorists will be tried for Treason by the Military ( not civilian) and hanged if convicted with only one appeal. I mean they belong to no country so we will just assume they are ours after capturing them, then since they were under arms at the time we will assume they were OUR military and since they were attacking us, TREASON applies.

There ya go, they get all the rights of any US Military personnel. Happy now?

So let me understand your point:

Because person A is immoral, then I have a right to be immoral.

Or--were you trying to make a logically based point?

 

[editec]

so no libral will ever be upset that we bombed the crap outta hiroshima and nagasaki then will they.. torture is off the table,, people can die by the hundreds of thousands yea, even millions, we can kill people in all manner of evil ways,, that's fine,, just don't make them uncomfortable.

Yup! That mental disconnect is fairly obvious, isn't it?

If a terrorist targets a public bus with innocent civilians, he's a terrorist monster.

But if a general targets an entire city filled with innocent civilians, he's just doing his job.

dead is preferrable to uncomfortable.. Librals have their circuits screwed onto the wrong plates! so I wake up this morning and find on the news the outstanding events in Pakistan.. taliban are going to overrided the Pakistani government and the Pakistani government isn't going to lift a finger.. nukes,, rigth there for them to pick up and use.. Netanyau is PM is Israel,,I gotta feeling the left is going to watch a lot of us die.. but don't mind me,, I got a bogeyman under my bed.

Yeah, your argument is really for completely unlimited no holds barred war, isn't it?

And you are RIGHT, Willow, that the world's attitude about what is a war crime and what is not is completely insane.

Nations target and kill civilians all the time and we don't call that war crimes, do we?

 

[Jon]

Because person A is immoral, then I have a right to be immoral.

Dunno, a lot of people are using a similar approach to defend Obama's actions since entering office.

 

[Truthmatters]

If it's ok for us to torture, why isn't it ok for them to torture?

Us good, them bad?

This poll is stupid.

why is it stupid? Because he is flipping it around on you?

exactly

 

[elvis]

If the people of this country are willing to accept that their government has the right to torture suspects in their custody, and ignore international laws and treaties as well as domestic laws banning torture, there is no reason for any other nation, state, or faction to comply with these laws either.
In the future any American held captive outside of this country can be questioned by those claiming authority using any interrogation technique they deem necessary. The term “those in authority” will be interpreted as those claiming jurisdiction in the location at the time of the interrogation.

Meanwhile Muslim Terrorists routinely just MURDER captives, usually by beheading them. But hey that is JUST fine with you dumb asses. Remind me how international law applies to none State terrorists. I saw in the future to solve this problem we just announce all captured Terrorists will be tried for Treason by the Military ( not civilian) and hanged if convicted with only one appeal. I mean they belong to no country so we will just assume they are ours after capturing them, then since they were under arms at the time we will assume they were OUR military and since they were attacking us, TREASON applies.

There ya go, they get all the rights of any US Military personnel. Happy now?

So let me understand your point:

Because person A is immoral, then I have a right to be immoral.

Or--were you trying to make a logically based point?

yeah, the death penalty would be wrong, too. as is imprisoning someone against his will. might as well fight to get KSM a trial in the US so he can be set free and blow up another skyscraper...oh wait, Obama's already doing that.

 

[tigerbob]

I'm the first person with the balls to vote yes. You guys are a bunch of cowards.

The problem here is that I oppose war in general, but in the event of war, I know that both sides are fighting for something. I'm not naive enough to say that our side should be the only one to use whatever means necessary to win.

I voted that American troops should not be tortured. You voted that they should be tortured.

Should be tortured??? I'm in a coward, then at least I'm one that reads how the fucking question is worded.