The Vader Presidency

[rayboyusmc]

Little Luke has been corrupted and led astray by the Dark Lord.

Just past the Oval Office, in the private dining room overlooking the South Lawn, Vice President Cheney joined President Bush at a round parquet table they shared once a week. Cheney brought a four-page text, written in strict secrecy by his lawyer. He carried it back out with him after lunch.

In less than an hour, the document traversed a West Wing circuit that gave its words the power of command. It changed hands four times, according to witnesses, with emphatic instructions to bypass staff review. When it returned to the Oval Office, in a blue portfolio embossed with the presidential seal, Bush pulled a felt-tip pen from his pocket and signed without sitting down. Almost no one else had seen the text.

Cheney's proposal had become a military order from the commander in chief. Foreign terrorism suspects held by the United States were stripped of access to any court -- civilian or military, domestic or foreign. They could be confined indefinitely without charges and would be tried, if at all, in closed "military commissions."

"What the hell just happened?" Secretary of State Colin L. Powell demanded, a witness said, when CNN announced the order that evening, Nov. 13, 2001. National security adviser Condoleezza Rice, incensed, sent an aide to find out. Even witnesses to the Oval Office signing said they did not know the vice president had played any part.

Now you know the rest of the story about the real president.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/cheney/chapters/chapter_1/

 

[jreeves]

Little Luke has been corrupted and led astray by the Dark Lord.



Now you know the rest of the story about the real president.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/cheney/chapters/chapter_1/

Didn't know foreign terrorist had constitutional rights considering they're not Americans?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Didn't know foreign terrorist had constitutional rights considering they're not Americans?

You haven't been paying attention, the loons on the left think our police can handle foreign terrorists. Of course first they will strip the police of any right to listen to them, search any accomplacies property and deny them the right to retrieve them from even friendly foreign powers.

The same people that insist 20 MILLION illegals should be legalized AND that the borders should remain so open 20 million more will flood in as soon as we do legalize this new batch, knowing they to will become legal.

Terrorist camps in foreign countries? No problem, if we ignore them or wait till they are empty and fire a cruise missile at them we will keep them at bay. But damn make sure we are on friendly terms with those foreign countries, wouldn't want to make any terrorist supporting states mad at us now would we?

Look on the bright side, in January no matter who is elected President, using the logic of these loons, they can NEVER mention Bush or Cheney EVER again.

 

[Paulie]

Why such secretive action required to give this order and have it signed?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Why such secretive action required to give this order and have it signed?

Secret? Doesn't sound like it was secret at all. Are you now claiming that the Vice President and the President must meet in a public forum and only make decisions publicly? The order was signed by the President that is, in the end, all that matters. The order was made public. Further parts of it have been, as our system allows, taken to court and thrown out.

That is HOW our system works.

Another lame attempt to blame Bush for something that is not illegal, immoral or even unathorized.

 

[midcan5]

Cheney has always been the real president in this administration, that anyone doubts that after all this time can only amaze. All the good guys and girls left long ago, dictatorships of thought require lackeys, Cheney has them.

Why do you think Bush needed Cheney when he testified before the 911 committee, he needed someone to tell him what happened and what he did next.

"In 1993-94, under a unified Democratic government, the House Government Reform Committee held 135 oversight or investigate hearings. In 2004-05 under the unified Republican government, Congress held just 37." from 'The Big Con,' by Jonathan Chait.

 

[Paulie]

Secret? Doesn't sound like it was secret at all.

No, huh?

It changed hands four times, according to witnesses, with emphatic instructions to bypass staff review.

When it returned to the Oval Office, in a blue portfolio embossed with the presidential seal, Bush pulled a felt-tip pen from his pocket and signed without sitting down. Almost no one else had seen the text.

"What the hell just happened?" Secretary of State Colin L. Powell demanded

National security adviser Condoleezza Rice, incensed, sent an aide to find out.

Even witnesses to the Oval Office signing said they did not know the vice president had played any part.

The order was made public.

Sure, after all the secrecy leading up to it actually being signed.

So, I'll ask again. Why all the secrecy? Why bypass staff review? Why didn't Rice, who was the friggin Nat. Sec. Advisor at the time, even know? Why not even the Sec. of State?

You're making the argument for what happened AFTER the fact. I don't care about AFTER. I want to know what the hell happened BEFORE, and WHY.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

No, huh?













Sure, after all the secrecy leading up to it actually being signed.

So, I'll ask again. Why all the secrecy? Why bypass staff review? Why didn't Rice, who was the friggin Nat. Sec. Advisor at the time, even know? Why not even the Sec. of State?

You're making the argument for what happened AFTER the fact. I don't care about AFTER. I want to know what the hell happened BEFORE, and WHY.

AND I repeat it does NOT matter. No one has the right to demand the President disclose why he chose to sign it nor why he had it done the way it was done. THAT is the law.

There is no requirement, no law nothing to require any staff review it not any advisor, no matter what position they hold know about it or even read it.

The Vice President can go to the President ANYTIME he wants and ask him to sign ANYTHING he wants. The President is free to do so or not AT HIS PLEASURE. AND there is no requirement that the Vice President vet anything he brings to the President through staff or advisors.

Perhaps you would care to provide us with a clause from the Constitution, a law passed and binding on the executive or EVEN a tradition that forbids the Vice President from doing EXACTLY what he did? Or any of the last that bar the President from doing what HE did?

 

[rayboyusmc]

Gunny bitches about the loons on the left but forgets he is one of the blind ones on the right. THEY DIDN'T EVEN TELL COLLIN POWELL, GUNNY. HE IS NOT THE FUCKING PUBLIC.

You haven't been paying attention, the loons on the left think our police can handle foreign terrorists

You haven't been paying attention. Our CIA, FBI, Police Forces and the same for our allies have been the ONES STOPPING THE FUCKKING PLOTS. You can't understand the concept of infiltrating the terrorist organizations and destroying them from within. That is the only way you will get to the fucking roots and pull them out. You may kill a few terrorists on the battlefield but you don't stop them. GET FUKKING REAL AND DROP THE PARTISAN SHIT.

To win the war against terrorism we need to destroy their foundations, not a few fucking battlefield terrorists.

You are either unable to think outside the normal boundaries of warfare or you are so fuckking partisan, you don't care.

The war in Iraq is good for a few things. It makes a lot of money for Bush's cronies, it recruits more terrorists and America haters, it give our troops infections from bad KBR water, and it is a total waste in fighting terrorism.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Gunny bitches about the loons on the left but forgets he is one of the blind ones on the right. THEY DIDN'T EVEN TELL COLLIN POWELL, GUNNY. HE IS NOT THE FUCKING PUBLIC.



You haven't been paying attention. Our CIA, FBI, Police Forces and the same for our allies have been the ONES STOPPING THE FUCKKING PLOTS. You can't understand the concept of infiltrating the terrorist organizations and destroying them from within. That is the only way you will get to the fucking roots and pull them out. You may kill a few terrorists on the battlefield but you don't stop them. GET FUKKING REAL AND DROP THE PARTISAN SHIT.

To win the war against terrorism we need to destroy their foundations, not a few fucking battlefield terrorists.

You are either unable to think outside the normal boundaries of warfare or you are so fuckking partisan, you don't care.

The war in Iraq is good for a few things. It makes a lot of money for Bush's cronies, it recruits more terrorists and America haters, it give our troops infections from bad KBR water, and it is a total waste in fighting terrorism.

Again I DEMAND you provide some law, some portion of the Constitution, some Tradition that bars the Vice President from presenting what ever the hell he wants to the President and dictates who sees it on its way. Further I DEMAND some law, some Constitutional clause that requires the President vet ANYTHING with his appointed Advisors. You can not even find any tradition for that.

 

[Paulie]

AND I repeat it does NOT matter. No one has the right to demand the President disclose why he chose to sign it nor why he had it done the way it was done. THAT is the law.

There is no requirement, no law nothing to require any staff review it not any advisor, no matter what position they hold know about it or even read it.

The Vice President can go to the President ANYTIME he wants and ask him to sign ANYTHING he wants. The President is free to do so or not AT HIS PLEASURE. AND there is no requirement that the Vice President vet anything he brings to the President through staff or advisors.

Perhaps you would care to provide us with a clause from the Constitution, a law passed and binding on the executive or EVEN a tradition that forbids the Vice President from doing EXACTLY what he did? Or any of the last that bar the President from doing what HE did?

RGS, you're missing the point. I'm not challenging it's legality, I'm just asking WHY. You really DO jump to conclusions too quickly when it comes to Bush or Cheney being questioned on something around here.

All I want to know is why the need for all the secrecy, when foreign combatants don't have that constitutional right to begin with?

 

[jreeves]

Gunny bitches about the loons on the left but forgets he is one of the blind ones on the right. THEY DIDN'T EVEN TELL COLLIN POWELL, GUNNY. HE IS NOT THE FUCKING PUBLIC.



You haven't been paying attention. Our CIA, FBI, Police Forces and the same for our allies have been the ONES STOPPING THE FUCKKING PLOTS. You can't understand the concept of infiltrating the terrorist organizations and destroying them from within. That is the only way you will get to the fucking roots and pull them out. You may kill a few terrorists on the battlefield but you don't stop them. GET FUKKING REAL AND DROP THE PARTISAN SHIT.

To win the war against terrorism we need to destroy their foundations, not a few fucking battlefield terrorists.

You are either unable to think outside the normal boundaries of warfare or you are so fuckking partisan, you don't care.

The war in Iraq is good for a few things. It makes a lot of money for Bush's cronies, it recruits more terrorists and America haters, it give our troops infections from bad KBR water, and it is a total waste in fighting terrorism.

Obama seems to disagree with you he stated he would go back to Iraq if AQ emerged, well they are there. This multi-front war, yes law enforcement plays a role but the military also plays a role. We had this law enforcement mentality from the Clinton Adminstration, it didn't stop 9/11. Terrorist aren't afraid of standing trail in American courts. They are afraid of their movement being wiped out by constant pressure, militarily, finacially and yes by law enforcement. Terrorist would gladly blow themselves up to further their movement, an American judge doesn't deter their actions.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

RGS, you're missing the point. I'm not challenging it's legality, I'm just asking WHY. You really DO jump to conclusions too quickly when it comes to Bush or Cheney being questioned on something around here.

All I want to know is why the need for all the secrecy, when foreign combatants don't have that constitutional right to begin with?

You do not NEED to know why and the President does not NEED to explain to ANYONE why he did it the way he did. It is THAT simple.

 

[Paulie]

You do not NEED to know why and the President does not NEED to explain to ANYONE why he did it the way he did. It is THAT simple.

Oh, I beg to differ RGS. I have every right to question it. Whether or not I'll get my answer is another story. But I enjoy my right to ask.

Apparently you don't. But then, you've admitted to leaning pretty far towards authoritarianism, so that doesn't come as any shock.

 

[rayboyusmc]

Gunny, despite your craven images of Bush and Cheney, he is still responsible to the people. He is not a fucking dictator with unlimited powers. Making enery policy that favors not you or me, but the oil companies, and refusing to let the public know what a public official did is bullshit. If a Democrat did this you would wet your maggies drawers. He is an elected official, not god.

J Reeves, what have we gained from the war in Iraq in fighting global terrorism? Damn, all the intelligence says that terrorists are stronger now then before the war. Kill a few, create many more.

Who said anything about a frigging judge? You infiltrate their ogranizations (yes, I know this takes time and effort) you document and verify what their real intetions and plans are. Then you kill them. Shit the CIA has been doing stuff like this to our enemies forever. No trials, no dead civilians, no dead American Military sacrifices for money. You keep your military strong to defend against the real enemies who have large standing armies.

If you are going to fight a counterinsurgency or guerilla war, then you do just that. You use tactics that are designed for this type of war, not convetional battlefield wars.

What would happen today if China decided to attack US? We would have to resort to nuclear war, because Bush has so weakened our military.

If you cut off the head of the snake the rest of the body dies. If you just keep poking the snake, you just piss him off.

 

[Paulie]

Gunny, despite your craven images of Bush and Cheney, he is still responsible to the people. He is not a fucking dictator with unlimited powers. Making enery policy that favors not you or me, but the oil companies, and refusing to let the public know what a public official did is bullshit. If a Democrat did this you would wet your maggies drawers. He is an elected official, not god.

J Reeves, what have we gained from the war in Iraq in fighting global terrorism? Damn, all the intelligence says that terrorists are stronger now then before the war. Kill a few, create many more.

Who said anything about a frigging judge? You infiltrate their ogranizations (yes, I know this takes time and effort) you document and verify what their real intetions and plans are. Then you kill them. Shit the CIA has been doing stuff like this to our enemies forever. No trials, no dead civilians, no dead American Military sacrifices for money. You keep your military strong to defend against the real enemies who have large standing armies.

If you are going to fight a counterinsurgency or guerilla war, then you do just that. You use tactics that are designed for this type of war, not convetional battlefield wars.

What would happen today if China decided to attack US? We would have to resort to nuclear war, because Bush has so weakened our military.

If you cut off the head of the snake the rest of the body dies. If you just keep poking the snake, you just piss him off.

Colonel, how you feel about Marque & Reprisal?

 

[rayboyusmc]

After checking it out on Google, in the hands of a a president who was still responsive tongress and the senate, it might be a good way to deal with the terrorists.

I just don't trust government to do anything right anymore as long as Bush is in the Whitewash and there is no oversight.

Unconventional war/times requires unconventional thinking and approaches. We have had neither is the so called war on terrorism. The phrase has become a right wing bogeyman to to slap down anyone who dares to dissent. Nice touch. The right would rather destroy our freedoms before the terrorists have a chance.

Along with this rather hard nosed approach, however, we need to work on elilminating the grass roots of terrorism that the fanatics use to fan the flames.

An honest approach to helping to reduce world poverty would probably save US a lot more money than the Carlyle Groups and Haliburton are making on this war. It doesn't have to do anything more with morality than hard nosed reality.

This is not a nice world all the time. You have to have a gun in one hand and food in the other. The problem is that too often some folks like to shoot them before we feed them and then wonder why they are pissed off.

 

[BrianH]

I wonder how many secret decisions have been made throughout the history of the U.S. Why should this secret signing of some document even matter? Do we know exactly what this document was about? or just what someone claimes it is about.

I'll agree we have the right to question, but in reality, they have the right to ignore our questioning. This isn't the first time something's been signed in secret, and this isn't the first president (far from it). And I'm sure at some point in time, the signing of something in secret was far better than signing something in public. The fact is, the majority of the American public cannot handle some things and cannot interpret it correctly, so it's signed in secret.

I'm not saying that this practice is right, but it's a reality. If you're a citizen that doesn't want things like this to happen, write your representative and actually try to help the situation. "
"Don't get on the internet and gripe about how the country works, get with the program and change how your country works."

 

[jreeves]

Gunny, despite your craven images of Bush and Cheney, he is still responsible to the people. He is not a fucking dictator with unlimited powers. Making enery policy that favors not you or me, but the oil companies, and refusing to let the public know what a public official did is bullshit. If a Democrat did this you would wet your maggies drawers. He is an elected official, not god.

J Reeves, what have we gained from the war in Iraq in fighting global terrorism? Damn, all the intelligence says that terrorists are stronger now then before the war. Kill a few, create many more.

Who said anything about a frigging judge? You infiltrate their ogranizations (yes, I know this takes time and effort) you document and verify what their real intetions and plans are. Then you kill them. Shit the CIA has been doing stuff like this to our enemies forever. No trials, no dead civilians, no dead American Military sacrifices for money. You keep your military strong to defend against the real enemies who have large standing armies.

If you are going to fight a counterinsurgency or guerilla war, then you do just that. You use tactics that are designed for this type of war, not convetional battlefield wars.

What would happen today if China decided to attack US? We would have to resort to nuclear war, because Bush has so weakened our military.

If you cut off the head of the snake the rest of the body dies. If you just keep poking the snake, you just piss him off.

Terrorist are stronger in Iraq? Really?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article3346386.ece

 

[Diuretic]

Is the president and/or vice president accountable to no-one?????