The buck stops where...?

[Bullypulpit]

<center><h1><a href=http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2903288.php>Editorial: A failure of leadership at the highest levels</a></h1></center>

<blockquote>Around the halls of the Pentagon, a term of caustic derision has emerged for the enlisted soldiers at the heart of the furor over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal: the six morons who lost the war.

Indeed, the damage done to the U.S. military and the nation as a whole by the horrifying photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi detainees at the notorious prison is incalculable.

But the folks in the Pentagon are talking about the wrong morons.

There is no excuse for the behavior displayed by soldiers in the now-infamous pictures and an even more damning report by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba. Every soldier involved should be ashamed.

But while responsibility begins with the six soldiers facing criminal charges, it extends all the way up the chain of command to the highest reaches of the military hierarchy and its civilian leadership.</blockquote>

When the military begins speaking critically of its civilian leadership, it is time to sit up and take notice.

 

[nycflasher]

Well, ultimately we hold those in positions of leadership responsible for how they deal with actions like these by their subordinates. I'm not sure what conclusions we can draw at this point. If someone of rank knew about or ordered this THAT would be significant, right?

 

[DKSuddeth]

If someone of high rank in the chain of command DIDN'T know about this, there needs to be an explanation why.

Did a middlerank officer conceal this information? thats where the buck stops.

If the high ranking didn't know and there was no concealment, now we have dereliction of duty.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

WHy are you guys still focusing on criticizing us, when there's a war on? Disgusting.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
WHy are you guys still focusing on criticizing us, when there's a war on? Disgusting.

people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. hypocritical

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
WHy are you guys still focusing on criticizing us, when there's a war on? Disgusting.

Oh please.
All atrocities are significant.
It's not liek I'm obsessed.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
If someone of high rank in the chain of command DIDN'T know about this, there needs to be an explanation why.

Did a middlerank officer conceal this information? thats where the buck stops.

If the high ranking didn't know and there was no concealment, now we have dereliction of duty.

Agreed.
Seems like these guards weren't very highly trained...

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by nycflasher
Agreed.
Seems like these guards weren't very highly trained...

its not the training, its the discipline, and if it IS the training, our military has gone to shit and back. I was fully trained on the geneva convention when I was in, but that was almost 20 years ago also.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by nycflasher
Oh please.
All atrocities are significant.
It's not liek I'm obsessed.

QUit fncking equating sexual embarrassment with beheading. You look like a fncking fool.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
QUit fncking equating sexual embarrassment with beheading. You look like a fncking fool.

And you are just making shit up. You obviously can't read, shall I type in Spanish?

Get a grip. Anyone? Am I wrong here?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Notice how our "atrocities" receive a pg 13 rating and can be shown on prime time television? THat's because they're not really atrocities, not in the context of wha they've done to innocent america civilians. You need to redo your brain.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by nycflasher
And you are just making shit up. You obviously can't read, shall I type in Spanish?

Get a grip. Anyone? Am I wrong here?

Yes. You're wrong.

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
its not the training, its the discipline, and if it IS the training, our military has gone to shit and back. I was fully trained on the geneva convention when I was in, but that was almost 20 years ago also.

DK, you know that machine gun the Marines have, the one with the double handle that sits on the ground and you fire it laying on your belly? I can't remember the name now but technically under the Geneva convention its only supposed to be used against equipment and not humans. Well I was talking to my brother recently(he was in 6 years, 1st Marines out of LeJeune) and he said yeah they'd tell you that then say "Marine, what do we call that canteen on his fanny pack? Sir, equipment sir!". So from what I hear they teach it but with a wink.

 

[OCA]

Never thought i'd put this in print but I gotta go with RWA on this one, there is absolutely no logical way that one can compare these two seperate incidents.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by OCA
DK, you know that machine gun the Marines have, the one with the double handle that sits on the ground and you fire it laying on your belly? I can't remember the name now but technically under the Geneva convention its only supposed to be used against equipment and not humans. Well I was talking to my brother recently(he was in 6 years, 1st Marines out of LeJeune) and he said yeah they'd tell you that then say "Marine, what do we call that canteen on his fanny pack? Sir, equipment sir!". So from what I hear they teach it but with a wink.

and when its open battle and combat, i'm all for that, But if you can't admit that theres a huge difference between combatants on a battlefield and prisoners in a prison camp, no offense intended, but I'm glad that you're not running things.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
I would not say he is making shit up! very true in my eyes that there is absolutely no comparison on the two! I would say that RW is more or less suprised to see people still speaking about the prisoner abuse deal when we all seen that evil shit committed by them fucking scum bag terrorist. "Were is the outrage" I think is what he is looking for and if so I have to agree 100%

He puts words in people's(my) mouth, that's what I was talking about. Abu is a big story. We shouldn't be that surprised people are discussing it. It needs to be understood that/if this was an isolated incident and quite different from the cowardly,daily acts of terrorists.

 

[5stringJeff]

The prison thing and the beheading are two separate issues - both disturbing, to be sure, but separate issues.

The editorial Bully linked to put the blame on everyone - from Rumsfield down to the moron privates who did this in the first place. I tend to agree that the higher chain is responsible for the media fiasco.

However, I think the responsibility for the actual events in the prison lies on the prison's chain of command - from the crying one-star general who says that it's not fair that she got blamed for it, down to Private Dumbass and his buddies.

I have a hard time holding Bush, Rumsfield, or even Myers and Abaziad responsible for the actual events that occured at the prison. Yes, they are responsible for establishing the correct command climate, but sometimes people don't follow the rules. The soldiers that broke the rules should be punished (and it looks like they have been) and their direct leadership should also be punished (which they have also). IMO, the only thing left to do is fix the problems in the prison, from command climate to training to enforcement of Geneva convention laws.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
The prison thing and the beheading are two separate issues - both disturbing, to be sure, but separate issues.

The editorial Bully linked to put the blame on everyone - from Rumsfield down to the moron privates who did this in the first place. I tend to agree that the higher chain is responsible for the media fiasco.

However, I think the responsibility for the actual events in the prison lies on the prison's chain of command - from the crying one-star general who says that it's not fair that she got blamed for it, down to Private Dumbass and his buddies.

I have a hard time holding Bush, Rumsfield, or even Myers and Abaziad responsible for the actual events that occured at the prison. Yes, they are responsible for establishing the correct command climate, but sometimes people don't follow the rules. The soldiers that broke the rules should be punished (and it looks like they have been) and their direct leadership should also be punished (which they have also). IMO, the only thing left to do is fix the problems in the prison, from command climate to training to enforcement of Geneva convention laws.

As far as I can tell the only blame that can be linked to higher-ups, like perhaps our President, involves the invasion of Iraq without proper/realistic planning.

That prison was overcrowded by 150%, for one thing, and apparently run by a bunch of jackasses.