The Black/Israel Fallacy

Discussion in 'Politics' started by QUENTIN, Jan 8, 2010.

  1. QUENTIN
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    QUENTIN VIP Member

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    Those who argue and believe that if you don't support Zionism and Israel even in the face of their war crimes, you must be prejudiced against Jews are intellectually indistinguishable from those who argue and believe if you don't like President Obama even in the face of policies you find awful, you must be prejudiced against black people.

    Just a fact. It's the exact same argument and they're both completely bogus and dishonest attempts at deflection.
     
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  2. uptownlivin90
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    uptownlivin90 Rebelious Youngin

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    I absolutely agree. Is there a story behind this post? Or just random thoughts?
     
  3. potter 58
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    potter 58 Active Member

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    trolling ,trolling ,trolling LOL
     
  4. Xenophon
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    Xenophon Gone and forgotten

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    What do the black israelites say about that?

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Oscar Wao
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    Oscar Wao Victory is Mine

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    To Zionists, goyim is their "whitey."
     
  6. Douger
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    Douger BANNED

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    GBA Stan and FreeDumb !
     

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  7. QUENTIN
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    QUENTIN VIP Member

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    The Ron Paul "They're Terrorists Because We're Occupiers" thread had a bunch of this cliche bullshit. People who claimed any fair, objective, or compassionate person who thinks killing innocent people is bad whether it's done by Israel or Islamic terrorists or Soviets or Americans or Cambodians or what have you is equally and always wrong is automatically an anti-semite. Or in other words, people who so fully worship another country that they believe if you don't agree with their stance on our relation to it, it isn't possible that you have a different opinion on policy or more consistent worldview but rather you must be personally deficient and prejudiced. That literally, despite every government in the world making mistakes on a regular basis, this one, Israel, is incapable of any wrongdoing or subsequent criticism and all opposition must be rooted in virulent personal hatred of a group of people for their religious beliefs or ethnicity, that it's impossible to instead just think that their government's policies are inhumane as you might think of many other nations. That was the impetus for this thread. I'm just sick of that intellectually bankrupt idea being trotted out so often.

    There's no doubt that a lot of anti-zionists are anti-semites (especially in the Middle East), just as a lot of people who oppose Obama are racists (especially in the rural Midwest and South), the dishonesty and deflection and bullshit arises when anyone claims if you are one you must be the other, implying there is absolutely no legitimate reason to oppose either. A whole lot of the strongest supporters of Zionism are themselves racist against Muslims generally and Palestinians in particular, viewing them as subhuman and therefore their suffering beneath consideration. But I wouldn't dream of saying or thinking "every supporter of Israel is a racist" because that's so obviously nonsense. The reason I made this particular comparison is because, in addition to being the exact same argument with only different nouns plugged in, many of those who cry anti-semitism at every opponent of Israel's belligerent policies are the same folks who endlessly criticize Obama and cry foul (rightly) when someone assumes they must be racist just for disagreeing with him politically.

    If you support or oppose any politician or political actor, you should be able to explain why, but attempting to silence dissent by arbitrarily denigrating the character of all who may disagree with you is nothing more than an attempt to avoid discussing the issue at hand, a petty and dishonest distraction tactic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2010
  8. noose4
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    noose4 Senior Member

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    I havent seen those guys in a while
     
  9. Baruch Menachem
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    Baruch Menachem '

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    False equivalence is always stupid.

    But those who accuse Israel of war crimes are usually lying about the war crimes supposedly inflicted. Israel, like every other nation has the right to self defense.

    Most of the anti Israel stuff I see on the internet is borderline anti semtic.
     
  10. QUENTIN
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    QUENTIN VIP Member

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    Israel, like every country, has the right to self defense. Israelis and Palestinians both have the right to exist, to not live in a constant state of violent harassment, fear, and calculated punishment to achieve political goals at the expense of the most basic and primitive human rights.

    It is a war crime for Hamas or any other group to lob missiles into Israel. Even if they don't kill anyone, the intent is there, the action is a horrible crime, and Israel has the right to respond by attempting to dismantle, overthrow, or kill Hamas militants to protect themselves from further attack.

    It is a war crime for Israel, in the pursuit of retribution towards Hamas, to kill ~1,400 Palestinians, over 1,000 of them civilians of which at least 320 were children and 110 were women, in indiscriminate and intentionally belligerent and open warfare against an enclosed, trapped civilian population. It is a war crime for them to intentionally block aid, food, water, and medical care to the civilian population for days on end as they did. It is a war crime for them to knowingly and intentionally shoot innocent civilians on sight, as many Israeli soldiers admitting to doing to Haaretz journalists and was subsequently reported by the BBC and Times Online. It is a war crime for them to bomb schools they knew to be filled with civilians under the suspicion that militants may be hiding among them. It is a war crime to use white phosphorous in heavily populated civilian areas. Essentially the entire way the Israeli Army engaged in the recent siege on Gaza, targeting Palestinians rather than Hamas specifically, is an egregious affront to human rights.

    A few choice quotes by IDF soldiers on record and cited in those news stories:

    - "That’s the beauty of Gaza. You see a man walking, he doesn’t have to have a weapon, and you can shoot him."
    - "When we entered a house, we were supposed to bust down the door and start shooting inside and just go up storey by storey… I call that murder. Each storey, if we identify a person, we shoot them. I asked myself – how is this reasonable?"
    -"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story,” the NCO said. “I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder."
    -"We had taken over the house… and the family was released and told to go right. A mother and two children got confused and went left… The sniper on the roof wasn't told that this was okay and that he shouldn't shoot… you can say he just did what he was told… he was told not to let anyone approach the left flank and he shot at them. I don't know whether he first shot at their feet or not, but he killed them."
    -"a great many soldiers had a feeling throughout this operation of a religious war."
    -"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers."

    The Israeli NGO "Breaking The Silence" documented all of this extensively, as well as claims that Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as human shields. The UN's investigative mission found the Israeli military (and Hamas)'s actions to be war crimes and crimes against humanity and the UN Human Rights Council endorsed their report.

    It shouldn't really lend any credence to my argument, because the facts are plain and can stand on their own, but I'm half Jewish. I'm agnostic, but I love the Jewish side of my family, Jewish culture, and the rich, unique, wonderful intellectual tradition of Judaism. I don't see people in terms of whatever big amorphous, heterogeneous group they may in part belong to. Judaism is no more responsible for the deplorable actions of the Israeli military than Islam is responsible for the deplorable actions of Hamas. But it's near impossible to look at the most recent Gaza War and not conclude that the leadership and militants of Hamas and leadership and soldiers of the Israeli government committed terrible war crimes. Noting that the latter happen to be Jewish and excusing any criticism of those actions as merely the result of anti-semitism is a cheap and dishonest deflection tactic.

    Just as claiming a fiscal, social, or foreign policy conservative, libertarian, independent, progressive, or non-aligned liberal who opposes Barack Obama's policies is merely the result of racial prejudice is a cheap and dishonest deflection tactic. Both rely on the exact same illogic, stubborn insistence on a pure and uncritiquable political actor, and are meant to distract from a sober consideration and debate of their actions.

    Anti-semitism and racism directed at African-Americans surely exists, but people whose views about Israel or Obama or any other Jewish or black person that are the result of racial and religious prejudice make themselves known by the vapidity and misdirected hatred of their arguments. What is unfair and simply fallacious is the assumption that there can be only one, nefarious, easily dismissible and illegitimate rationale for opposition to something you support, whatever it may be.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2010

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