Stone to rehablitate Hilter Stalin and Mao.

[Big Fitz]

ahhhh.... wasn't sure what you were getting at or if you believe that statement.

 

[HistoricalTruth]

I have not read through this entire thread, but I think I have a good grasp on the direction. I know I am new, but I am not new to this sort of debate...and I use the word debate loosely.

The BIIIIG question. Was the Nazi Movement leftist or Right wing in nature? Was Hitler a right wing nutjob or some kind of ideological leftista?

First, some of you need to disabuse yourself of the notion that you can determine what the Nazis were based on what you see through your modern ideological lens. You can not understand what Nazism, or even what Hitler was unless you understand the atmosphere from which they sprang. That included the political AND the Social. We have turned the words "fascist", "Nazi" and "Communist" into buzzwords to describe people who disagree with us in political issues, and we lose site of what they really are in order to score pissing contest points.

The idea that you can say the GOP is somehow the spiritual inheritor of the Nazi ideal is just as asinine as saying the modern Democratic party are a bunch of Leftist commies trying to destroy the country. That anyone undertakes to make that connection is a sign of historical ignorance and near revisionism. It's also a sign that you do not really understand that there are more similarities between the GOP and the Dems than there are differences.

The root of this debate stems from the fact that no one wants to claim Hitler. There have been movements to prove he was a Jew, so the Jews would have to take blame for him. There have been movements to prove he was a hard core evangelical, so the neo-cons had to take some posthumous responsibility for his existence. One group is now trying to blame his rise on the gay agenda. Germans will point out that he was not even German, Austrians will point out that he was not really an Austrian and so on. I expect a movement, any day now, to prove he was not really from earth at all.

The simple truth is, that even by the standards of of the time, Hitler was considered a product of the right, but he could not be defined so easily within the context of today's political sophistication because he does not fit in any tidy ideological box. Linear minds may try to pin him to either side but you need to face the facts that he was much more complicated than that.

The Nazi party itself has roots in right AND left wing idealism as defined by today's standards. It was both Nationalst AND Socialist just as the name implies, and populist in nature. Hitler bastardized the movement with his own brand after he assumed control but his goal was neither right wing nor left wing as we see it. There were schisms within the party, some who believed in the Nationalist first and some who actually thought the Socialist aspect was key.

After Hitler pushed his way into the big chair of the party the Nationalist schism won. Hitler was influenced by many people in his limited intellectual way, including a Brit and a French writer, but in the end he created his own political vision. It was ultimately imperialist, heavily influenced by Prussian sentiment and played on the German idealism that preached loyalty to the state as the first responsibility of the people, and that the first responsibility of the state is the safety of the state. Sorry righty, but that is now and was then a Right wing belief, but it does not define him as a whole.

Yes, thats an oversimplification but its a good place to start.

 

[Big Fitz]

It was both Nationalst

Again, nationalism is not inherently 'right wing'. It is party/movement neutral and shows a love of nation often defined by geography, race or a combination thereof.

This is why Americans, now that I think of it, are Patriotic, not necessarily Nationalistic. They're becoming MORE nationalistic as time goes on and they get attached to the land more than the concept of American as prescribed in the constitution.

 

[HistoricalTruth]

It was both Nationalst

Again, nationalism is not inherently 'right wing'. It is party/movement neutral and shows a love of nation often defined by geography, race or a combination thereof.

This is why Americans, now that I think of it, are Patriotic, not necessarily Nationalistic. They're becoming MORE nationalistic as time goes on and they get attached to the land more than the concept of American as prescribed in the constitution.

I didn't say nationalism was inherently right wing.

Loyalty to the state above all things is not nationalism.

 

[Big Fitz]

It was both Nationalst

Again, nationalism is not inherently 'right wing'. It is party/movement neutral and shows a love of nation often defined by geography, race or a combination thereof.

This is why Americans, now that I think of it, are Patriotic, not necessarily Nationalistic. They're becoming MORE nationalistic as time goes on and they get attached to the land more than the concept of American as prescribed in the constitution.

I didn't say nationalism was inherently right wing.

Loyalty to the state above all things is not nationalism.

Correct, that would be blind patriotism. The "my Government, right or wrong" position.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I have not read through this entire thread, but I think I have a good grasp on the direction. I know I am new, but I am not new to this sort of debate...and I use the word debate loosely.

The BIIIIG question. Was the Nazi Movement leftist or Right wing in nature? Was Hitler a right wing nutjob or some kind of ideological leftista?

First, some of you need to disabuse yourself of the notion that you can determine what the Nazis were based on what you see through your modern ideological lens. You can not understand what Nazism, or even what Hitler was unless you understand the atmosphere from which they sprang. That included the political AND the Social. We have turned the words "fascist", "Nazi" and "Communist" into buzzwords to describe people who disagree with us in political issues, and we lose site of what they really are in order to score pissing contest points.

The idea that you can say the GOP is somehow the spiritual inheritor of the Nazi ideal is just as asinine as saying the modern Democratic party are a bunch of Leftist commies trying to destroy the country. That anyone undertakes to make that connection is a sign of historical ignorance and near revisionism. It's also a sign that you do not really understand that there are more similarities between the GOP and the Dems than there are differences.

The root of this debate stems from the fact that no one wants to claim Hitler. There have been movements to prove he was a Jew, so the Jews would have to take blame for him. There have been movements to prove he was a hard core evangelical, so the neo-cons had to take some posthumous responsibility for his existence. One group is now trying to blame his rise on the gay agenda. Germans will point out that he was not even German, Austrians will point out that he was not really an Austrian and so on. I expect a movement, any day now, to prove he was not really from earth at all.

The simple truth is, that even by the standards of of the time, Hitler was considered a product of the right, but he could not be defined so easily within the context of today's political sophistication because he does not fit in any tidy ideological box. Linear minds may try to pin him to either side but you need to face the facts that he was much more complicated than that.

The Nazi party itself has roots in right AND left wing idealism as defined by today's standards. It was both Nationalst AND Socialist just as the name implies, and populist in nature. Hitler bastardized the movement with his own brand after he assumed control but his goal was neither right wing nor left wing as we see it. There were schisms within the party, some who believed in the Nationalist first and some who actually thought the Socialist aspect was key.

After Hitler pushed his way into the big chair of the party the Nationalist schism won. Hitler was influenced by many people in his limited intellectual way, including a Brit and a French writer, but in the end he created his own political vision. It was ultimately imperialist, heavily influenced by Prussian sentiment and played on the German idealism that preached loyalty to the state as the first responsibility of the people, and that the first responsibility of the state is the safety of the state. Sorry righty, but that is now and was then a Right wing belief, but it does not define him as a whole.

Yes, thats an oversimplification but its a good place to start.

You made a good post.
you failed to address or choose to ignore the parallels of early 20th century progressivism and what is going on now with the DNC , These parallels where posted in the thread earlier, I will repost them again if needed , Sure no one wants Hitler in their camp , never the less , Nazism and progressivism seem to go hand in hand .
Do you disagree?

 

[HistoricalTruth]

I have not read through this entire thread, but I think I have a good grasp on the direction. I know I am new, but I am not new to this sort of debate...and I use the word debate loosely.

The BIIIIG question. Was the Nazi Movement leftist or Right wing in nature? Was Hitler a right wing nutjob or some kind of ideological leftista?

First, some of you need to disabuse yourself of the notion that you can determine what the Nazis were based on what you see through your modern ideological lens. You can not understand what Nazism, or even what Hitler was unless you understand the atmosphere from which they sprang. That included the political AND the Social. We have turned the words "fascist", "Nazi" and "Communist" into buzzwords to describe people who disagree with us in political issues, and we lose site of what they really are in order to score pissing contest points.

The idea that you can say the GOP is somehow the spiritual inheritor of the Nazi ideal is just as asinine as saying the modern Democratic party are a bunch of Leftist commies trying to destroy the country. That anyone undertakes to make that connection is a sign of historical ignorance and near revisionism. It's also a sign that you do not really understand that there are more similarities between the GOP and the Dems than there are differences.

The root of this debate stems from the fact that no one wants to claim Hitler. There have been movements to prove he was a Jew, so the Jews would have to take blame for him. There have been movements to prove he was a hard core evangelical, so the neo-cons had to take some posthumous responsibility for his existence. One group is now trying to blame his rise on the gay agenda. Germans will point out that he was not even German, Austrians will point out that he was not really an Austrian and so on. I expect a movement, any day now, to prove he was not really from earth at all.

The simple truth is, that even by the standards of of the time, Hitler was considered a product of the right, but he could not be defined so easily within the context of today's political sophistication because he does not fit in any tidy ideological box. Linear minds may try to pin him to either side but you need to face the facts that he was much more complicated than that.

The Nazi party itself has roots in right AND left wing idealism as defined by today's standards. It was both Nationalst AND Socialist just as the name implies, and populist in nature. Hitler bastardized the movement with his own brand after he assumed control but his goal was neither right wing nor left wing as we see it. There were schisms within the party, some who believed in the Nationalist first and some who actually thought the Socialist aspect was key.

After Hitler pushed his way into the big chair of the party the Nationalist schism won. Hitler was influenced by many people in his limited intellectual way, including a Brit and a French writer, but in the end he created his own political vision. It was ultimately imperialist, heavily influenced by Prussian sentiment and played on the German idealism that preached loyalty to the state as the first responsibility of the people, and that the first responsibility of the state is the safety of the state. Sorry righty, but that is now and was then a Right wing belief, but it does not define him as a whole.

Yes, thats an oversimplification but its a good place to start.

You made a good post.
you failed to address or choose to ignore the parallels of early 20th century progressivism and what is going on now with the DNC , These parallels where posted in the thread earlier, I will repost them again if needed , Sure no one wants Hitler in their camp , never the less , Nazism and progressivism seem to go hand in hand .
Do you disagree?

Go ahead and re-post or link to them and I'll read through it.

I disagree that there is a palpable connection between Nazism itself and the Modern progressive movement, but I do agree that there is a totalitarian aspect to it all. Especially in the arena of thought control and nanny-ism.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1888301-post24.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1891422-post119.html

 

[Political Junky]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1888301-post24.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1891422-post119.html

Interesting you equate Democrats with Muslims.
Cons supported Hitler and Mussolini, and today we have a corporatocracy, thanks to cons. Mussolini described Fascism as corporatism.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1888301-post24.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1891422-post119.html

Interesting you equate Democrats with Muslims.
Cons supported Hitler and Mussolini, and today we have a corporatocracy, thanks to cons. Mussolini described Fascism as corporatism.

Im not aware I did that in those post , feel free to highlight that, the connection between the left and jihad has been done by others in detail but we will no derail this thread to illustrate that connection.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF3uVaqdi_Q&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Glenn Beck special revoutionary holocaust part 1.wmv[/ame]

 

[HistoricalTruth]

Hitler writes from the grave

My Dear Juliusi,

Landsberg prison, which I entered on April 1, 1924, and where I wrote "Mein Kampf," is strangely similar to this place that I entered after shooting myself to death on the afternoon of April 30, 1945, and from where I write this letter. I found myself in both places involuntarily, yet they have each provided me with peace as well as perspective to write of the ideas that fueled our movement. I dedicated "Mein Kampf" to the dead heroes of the so-called Beer Hall Putsch who fell on Nov. 9, 1923, with loyal faith in the resurrection of their peopleii. I dedicate this letter to you along with the nine other heroes who were martyred at the Nuremberg tribunal and who joined me here on Oct. 16, 1946.

In the timeless eternity of our existence here, I often reflect upon my single biggest mistake – underestimating America. Early in 1941, Ribbentrop and I promised the Japanese foreign minister, Yosuke Matsuoka, that should Japan become engaged in a war against the United States, Germany would join the war immediately. However, to us, the Three-Power Pact had as its goal frightening and keeping America out of the war. I encouraged Japan to immediately take an active part in the war against Englandiii and not to provoke America. Although I didn't see much future for the Americans, I did not want them in the war until we had put down Russia.

Exactly one month after the Japanese betrayed me by attacking Pearl Harbor I told you all at our Berlin headquarters that America is a decayed country. My feelings about America were feelings of hatred and deep repugnance. Everything about the behavior of American society reveals that it's half Judaized and the other half Negrified. How can one expect a state like that to hold together?iv. Well, America did hold together and she seized victory from us. However, and this is important my friend, she has finally adopted many of the vital ideas for which we lived and died. Could not this be described as an ultimate victory?

Let me explain. First and foremost we were socialists. As national socialists, or Nazis, we knew that government must control the people. Thus, we understood that the old German tradition of citizens owning guns had to end. On March 18, 1938, we enacted our Law on Weapons and ruled that only government officials were allowed to own firearms. You can imagine my approval as I watched Sen. Thomas Dodd craft America's Gun Control Act of 1968 by having our own law of 1938 translated for him by an official of The Library of Congressv. My dear Julius, we can be proud of how similarly the two laws read. Those advocating gun control in America are naïve and well-meaning. They will help socialism prevail. We told the German people that gun-control laws were needed to curb gang activity and preserve democracy. What those laws really did was help our national socialist government prevail.

Do you remember, dear Julius, how we Nazis always understood that German citizens were our future and the destiny of our nation? We did everything possible to keep our people healthy. In the same way that wise farmers must accept responsibility for the health of their herds, we used the power of government to keep our flocks healthy. Since both mind and body were supposed to belong to the Fuhrer, we tried to criminalize the smoking of cigarettes.

Our Ministry of Science and Education ordered elementary schools to discuss the dangers of tobaccovi. Government-sponsored cultural and educational events were declared to be "smoke-free." In the late 1930s, we called for increased taxes on cigarettes and later instituted bans on cigarette advertising. I am most proud of the legislation we introduced prohibiting sales of cigarettes to minors. We set up counseling centers for the psychological treatment of smokers and we established smoke-free restaurants.

We soon managed to prohibit smoking on Luftwaffe properties and followed that with prohibiting smoking in post offices, government buildings and many workplaces. "No Smoking" cars were established on all German trains with fines levied upon violators, and in 1940 SS Chief Heinrich Himmler announced a smoking ban for all on-duty police and SS officers. Our comrade, Hermann Goring, decreed that soldiers may not smoke in public, and most of our cities banned smoking on public transport in order to protect the ticket takers from the hazards of second-hand smoke. We can indeed be proud that today America has also come to realize the importance of central government taking the initiative in regulating what people do not have the good sense to do voluntarily. We may have lost that battle of ideas in the middle of the 20th century, but with the help of foolish Americans, we Nazis are winning in the long run.

Do you remember that awkwardness in late 1940, my dear Julius? The American consulate in Leipzig reported to the American State Department that we were conducting compassionate euthanasia on the patients in the Grafeneck Mental Asylum in Wurttemberg. What uproar resulted in America! But now, one of America's most prestigious universities has appointed as professor of bioethics (whatever that is), one who openly advocates putting to death the mentally defective, the terminally ill and even severely disabled infants. He would give parents and doctors the right to actually kill – not just withhold treatment – imperfect newborns. What genius! The professor insists that a newborn has no greater right to life than pigs, cows and dogs. He is one of us, Julius.

And the best part of it is that those who yesterday loudly protested our comparatively mild policies in Wurttemberg have today not uttered even a squeak of protest. The ridiculous idea that all human life is sacred is now finally under attack in America. One president was re-elected even after he affirmed the legitimacy of exterminating infants during birth, and some American doctors in their province of Oregon have begun doing away with the elderly and weak. Yes, America is certainly coming around to our way of seeing things.

Finally, dear Julius, you will remember what I frequently said and wrote in "Mein Kampf": "The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the peoplevii." I said that as long as we explain how the government is working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation. It is truly heartwarming to see how well this lesson has been learned by some Americans. In the name of "the children," incursions into the private lives of American citizens have been made that we Nazis would have gazed at with open-mouthed admiration. Does it matter that our bodies failed as long as our spirit still triumphs?

I know you have a question to ask me, my friend: What about the Jews? After all, how can I say that much of America is adopting our views when Jews still exert such disproportionate influence in that country? Grasp the genius of your Fuhrer, my good friend. You see, dear Julius, with well-meaning earnestness, most American Jews are solidly behind the ideas I have been describing. In the mistaken belief that they are making America safer for minorities, many American Jews have joined those advocating ever larger and ever more powerful government. In reality, what they are doing is making America more hospitable to our form of socialism. When it eventually arrives, they too will see the real dangers, but by then, it will be too late.

Now they only see danger in illiterate thugs with no hair on their heads and in degenerate psychopaths with second-hand Nazi regalia. American Jews are frightened by a handful of the sort of lowlifes we used to execute, instead of being terrified of the real danger they themselves are helping to create – government with almost limitless power to tax and grow.

And it wasn't just the Jews. Joseph Goebbels put it quite correctly when he said, "The Fuhrer is deeply religious though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so, it is a branch of the Jewish raceviii." We can be confident that America will preserve and develop our Nazi ideas of human perfectability because of one stroke of genius that even Reich minister of propaganda, the great Joseph Goebbels, has to admire. Those who are advocating socialism in America, whether deliberately or inadvertently, have succeeded in turning the term "Nazi" into a slur that may only be used against conservatives. Never is it used against those on the left who are precisely the Americans doing most to advance our agenda. We are winning, Julius, thanks to those American Democrats, we are winning. Heil Hitler.

Clever, but all it really does is demonstrate that people are willing to take small pieces of the big picture in order to make a spurious ideological point. I already argued that the issue of whether Hitler and ultimately the NAZI party were Right wing or left wing is not as simple as many who toss these accusations around seem to think it is. I'll ad some detail to that addressing the implications made in this post. While I do that..which will take time...I want to post something some of you might find interesting.

The following is the 25 point program of the NSDAP as it existed from 1919 until 1933. It should give you a good basis of where I am arguing from when I finally get to the response.


1. We demand the union of all Germany in a Greater Germany on the basis of the right of national self-determination.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations, and the revocation of the peace treaties of Versailles and Saint-Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.

4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever be their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation.

5. Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens.

6. The right to vote on the State's government and legislation shall be enjoyed by the citizens of the State alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Reich, in the states or in the smaller localities, shall be held by none but citizens.

We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of filling posts merely in accordance with party considerations, and without reference to character or abilities.

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.

8. All non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after 2 August 1914 shall be required to leave the Reich forthwith.

9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.

10. It must be the first duty of every citizen to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash with the general interest, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:

11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. *

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs). We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State.

21. The State must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor, by promoting physical strength through legislation providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth.

22. We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and the foundation of a people's army.

23. We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a German national press we demand:

(a) that all editors of, and contributors to newspapers appearing in the German language must be members of the nation;
(b) that no non-German newspapers may appear without the express permission of the State. They must not be printed in the German language;
(c) that non-Germans shall be prohibited by law from participating financially in or influencing German newspapers, and that the penalty for contravening such a law shall be the suppression of any such newspaper, and the immediate deportation of the non-Germans involved.
The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

25. To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states.

The leaders of the Party promise to work ruthlessly -- if need be to sacrifice their very lives -- to translate this programme into action.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Yeah with a few acceptions ,that all sounds like stuff I have heard from the Progressives .

Dont miss this, then you can move on to productive ground this one has been plowed.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF3uVaqdi_Q&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The road to serfdom: text and documents - Google Books

[/IMG]