Solar to Heat projects vaporize birds, inadvertently reinvent Archimedes' Death Ray

[Corrigendum]

The solar power tower, also known as 'central tower' power plants or 'heliostat' power plants or power towers, is a type of solar furnace using a tower to receive the focused sunlight. It uses an array of flat, movable mirrors (called heliostats) to focus the sun's rays upon a collector tower (the target). Concentrated solar thermal is seen as one viable solution for renewable, pollution-free energy. (From Wikipedia)

There are many of these sites currently in operation in California, the Middle East, and Barad-dûr.

A plant operator in Mojave, California where one such tower has been constructed, remarked: "I watched a whole flock of geese fly through that beam... nothing came out. Nothing dropped. They all got vaporized."

A bereaved resident of Middle Earth was a little harder to understand. "Then at last my gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black tower of adamant, I saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left me. That mofo Sauron got a goddam death ray."

Joking aside, I have no particular problem with any kind of technology so long as they can survive in the free market without holding taxpayers hostage. The major problem with so-called green technologies such as these is that they are uneconomic for power generation without immense government subsidies. Just one of these solar to heat/steam/electricity plants has the footprint of a few football fields while generating the same amount of energy as a natural gas generator the size of a semi trailer. Note that the Sauron tower cost 30 million dollars to build and a typical NG steam generator with the same energy output is well under a million... with far lower operational expenses.

If you want to build yourself a Lord of the Rings tower in the middle of the desert and sell the energy to people, be my guest. But don't point the guns of government force at me to make it happen... because that probably means you have a really, really crappy product that very few people would buy otherwise.

 

[flacaltenn]

It is chilling that we can't tolerate a low volume of ATVs trekking thru the desert.. But we can build DEATH rays that vaporize birds and suck up desert water supply.. Along with the transmission lines, roads and traffic to get access to the site.

I watched one video where the state Wildlife folks had to collect up resettle all the desert tortoises in a 5 sq mile radius around one of those plants to protect them from the traffic and development.

So it's not just birds that are affected.. But MAYBE -- anyone who FAVORS MORE of these plants in the middle of a major FLYWAY --- should do 100 hrs of community service euthanizing the "survivors"..

That kid unfortunately didn't get vaporized instantly..

Should be a graphic warning on this thread.. Good choice...

 

[flacaltenn]

This is one of PMZ's favorite solutions.. We need him to check in and volunteer to euthanize some of the victims. I dont blame our bird watchers for ignoring this thread....

 

[Mr. H.]

Collateral damage. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Acceptable numbers. A 30 year pass is in order.

If it's Green, it's Keen.

 

[Kosh]

Just remember the far left AGW church going Obama drones will ignore many deaths except if it is for their cause.

 

[cowden66]

Hi good luck man and thanks for sharing this post with us.

 

[Abraham3]

What are the fuel costs for one of these puppies? Just what makes up those high operating costs? Dusting off the mirrors? And is that prime real estate they're sitting on? Looks like prime desert to me.

China is a good test bed for the effects of unchecked use of fossil fuel. How's the bird population in greater Beijing?

 

[Kosh]

And our first far left AGW church going Obama drone has checked in and has proven my statement.

 

[Abraham3]

And you fail to even attempt to answer a single one of the five questions I posed. Gee, what's my takeaway from that?

 

[Kosh]

The far left does not care about any deaths unless it fits their agenda. Second post from the far left AGW church going Obama drone proving that.

 

[Abraham3]

And again, no answers.

1) How much fuel does a solar power tower burn every day?
2) What makes up the claimed "high operating costs" for a solar power tower?
3) Is it dusting off the mirrors?
4) Are these tower systems built on prime real estate?
5) How would you rate the health of the wild bird population in greater Beijing?

 

[editec]

A PARABOLIC MIRROR of a couple feet or so can focus the noonday sun's rays into extreme temps.

 

[Old Rocks]

This is an engineering problem. One that can be solved, and should be solved before these towers are put up. However, compared to the death toll from tall building with lot's of glass windows, these towers are relitively harmless. But none of the people crying crocodile tears here are saying a thing about that.

Alternative power is here to stay. Wind is cheaper to build and operate, per watt generated, than coal in many places right now. With far less damage to the environment than coal. Solar is rapidly closing in on the cost of a dirty coal fired plant, with even less environmental damage than wind. And someday, some college student will be doing a thesis on the psychology of the people that wish to continue the burning of fossil fuels, and wonder why anyone would want to retain such a filthy sytem of power generation.

 

[Mr. H.]

Analysis: Clouds over Hawaii's rooftop solar growth hint at U.S. battleYahoo!

"It's almost like you have a 200 MW power plant ... and you don't know what it's going to do..."

 

[flacaltenn]

Hi good luck man and thanks for sharing this post with us.

Welcome to USMB Cowden....

 

[flacaltenn]

And again, no answers.

1) How much fuel does a solar power tower burn every day?
2) What makes up the claimed "high operating costs" for a solar power tower?
3) Is it dusting off the mirrors?
4) Are these tower systems built on prime real estate?
5) How would you rate the health of the wild bird population in greater Beijing?

Get your own answers twerp.. You're obviously behind the curve here.

1) MANY of these plants are HYBRID using solar thermal to peak nat gas generators.
2) MANY of these plants contain TONS of corrosive toxic molten salt storage. Should they be damaged or spring a leak -- the land would become inhabitable and perhaps poison the water source that is being used.
3) They all use high amounts of water -- something that is at a premium for life in a desert.
4) "DUSTING OFF" the mirrors is not as trivial as you might think. Since it will signif. reduce production.. EVEN from the bird shit that gets dropped as they die in flight.
5) YES -- These towers are built on prime real estate.. Real Estate that is OFF LIMITS to any other use by man because it's ecologically sensitive land.
6) THESE LATEST Death Rays are built right in the middle of the fucking FLYWAY. A move that wasn't given much credence at all because of the Green Death Panels that determine the relative importance of waivers to Enviro Impact Reports.
7) No GoldiRocks ---- It's not a mere "engineering problem". That's a disingenous slap of the hand to brush off the mistakes of siting and enviro mitagation for these dangerous toys.
8) It's likely that birds mistake the mirrors for a water source.. And it's NOT LIKELY that the major portions of the beam can be shielding or camoflauged from wildlife.
9) You don't have to transverse the major beam path to be instantly BLINDED.

There's a start for your "research" that you will NEVER do....

 

[Kosh]

And again, no answers.

1) How much fuel does a solar power tower burn every day?
2) What makes up the claimed "high operating costs" for a solar power tower?
3) Is it dusting off the mirrors?
4) Are these tower systems built on prime real estate?
5) How would you rate the health of the wild bird population in greater Beijing?

Again the far left AGW church going Obama drone does not address the deaths, just the talking points of the church.

 

[flacaltenn]

Analysis: Clouds over Hawaii's rooftop solar growth hint at U.S. battleYahoo!

"It's almost like you have a 200 MW power plant ... and you don't know what it's going to do..."

Hey.. All that engineering detail is for OTHERS to figure out.. We don't have to bother with details... We just want free stuff...

 

[Abraham3]

And again, no answers.

1) How much fuel does a solar power tower burn every day?
2) What makes up the claimed "high operating costs" for a solar power tower?
3) Is it dusting off the mirrors?
4) Are these tower systems built on prime real estate?
5) How would you rate the health of the wild bird population in greater Beijing?

Get your own answers twerp.. You're obviously behind the curve here.

But, you seem to have provided some. Make up your mind sweetie.

1) MANY of these plants are HYBRID using solar thermal to peak nat gas generators.

So what? The solar side still uses ZERO FUEL. Do you know how much ZERO FUEL costs? ZERO. Do you know how many foreign countries are involved in the acquisition of ZERO FUEL? ZERO. Do you know how much carbon (in the form of carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide; along with nitrous oxide and particulates) ZERO FUEL puts into our atmosphere? ZERO.

That was the answer an honest person in your shoes would have given.

2) MANY of these plants contain TONS of corrosive toxic molten salt storage. Should they be damaged or spring a leak -- the land would become inhabitable and perhaps poison the water source that is being used.

Tons? Really? Tons?

List of oil spills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why don't you be a good boy and tally up that MULTI-PAGE list

3) They all use high amounts of water -- something that is at a premium for life in a desert.

After they boil it, they just let it blow away in the wind? I don't think so. I'm quite certain they run a closed loop. And in this day and age, I'm quite certain that water can be trucked in at no more cost than you'd pay to truck it in to a coal or gas fired power plant.

4) "DUSTING OFF" the mirrors is not as trivial as you might think. Since it will signif. reduce production.. EVEN from the bird shit that gets dropped as they die in flight.

Wow. So... maintenance. Sorta like... anything else with which you make electricity.

5) YES -- These towers are built on prime real estate.. Real Estate that is OFF LIMITS to any other use by man because it's ecologically sensitive land.

Are you actually going to claim that's a requirement for these sorts of facilities. That's hogwash and you know it.

6) THESE LATEST Death Rays are built right in the middle of the fucking FLYWAY. A move that wasn't given much credence at all because of the Green Death Panels that determine the relative importance of waivers to Enviro Impact Reports.

These systems don't send death rays into the air. And since the thing is sitting is no where near water, birds will not be landing in flocks, but simply flying overhead. Big whoop.

7) No GoldiRocks ---- It's not a mere "engineering problem". That's a disingenous slap of the hand to brush off the mistakes of siting and enviro mitagation for these dangerous toys.
8) It's likely that birds mistake the mirrors for a water source.. And it's NOT LIKELY that the major portions of the beam can be shielding or camoflauged from wildlife.

Netting over the entire facility would stop that problem completely. That took me about 5 seconds. I'm thinking that's a soluble problem. How many birds have died in the oil spills I just noted on another thread? List of oil spills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I think it was. I won't claim this will kill no birds, but I bet it will kill orders of magnitude less than the equivalent fossil fuel plant would lead to.

9) You don't have to transverse the major beam path to be instantly BLINDED.

There are no side lobes.

There's a start for your "research" that you will NEVER do....

I think saving birds and minimizing all other environmental risks and damage is something that WILL take place.

How much research did the oil industry undertake to prevent List of oil spills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and how successful was it?

 

[flacaltenn]

And again, no answers.

1) How much fuel does a solar power tower burn every day?
2) What makes up the claimed "high operating costs" for a solar power tower?
3) Is it dusting off the mirrors?
4) Are these tower systems built on prime real estate?
5) How would you rate the health of the wild bird population in greater Beijing?

Get your own answers twerp.. You're obviously behind the curve here.

But, you seem to have provided some. Make up your mind sweetie.




So what? The solar side still uses ZERO FUEL. Do you know how much ZERO FUEL costs? ZERO. Do you know how many foreign countries are involved in the acquisition of ZERO FUEL? ZERO. Do you know how much carbon (in the form of carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide; along with nitrous oxide and particulates) ZERO FUEL puts into our atmosphere? ZERO.

That was the answer an honest person in your shoes would have given.



Tons? Really? Tons?

List of oil spills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why don't you be a good boy and tally up that MULTI-PAGE list



After they boil it, they just let it blow away in the wind? I don't think so. I'm quite certain they run a closed loop. And in this day and age, I'm quite certain that water can be trucked in at no more cost than you'd pay to truck it in to a coal or gas fired power plant.



Wow. So... maintenance. Sorta like... anything else with which you make electricity.



Are you actually going to claim that's a requirement for these sorts of facilities. That's hogwash and you know it.



These systems don't send death rays into the air. And since the thing is sitting is no where near water, birds will not be landing in flocks, but simply flying overhead. Big whoop.



Netting over the entire facility would stop that problem completely. That took me about 5 seconds. I'm thinking that's a soluble problem. How many birds have died in the oil spills I just noted on another thread? List of oil spills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I think it was. I won't claim this will kill no birds, but I bet it will kill orders of magnitude less than the equivalent fossil fuel plant would lead to.

9) You don't have to transverse the major beam path to be instantly BLINDED.

There are no side lobes.

There's a start for your "research" that you will NEVER do....

I think saving birds and minimizing all other environmental risks and damage is something that WILL take place.

How much research did the oil industry undertake to prevent List of oil spills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and how successful was it?

Don't like your "answers".. Didn't figure I would...

No sidelobes Popeye?

The field of light concentration is nearly as large as the facility itself.
In the desert with air temps at 100degF -- doesn't take much to burn the feathers off a bird and leave it thrashing on the ground.

The maintenance issues are MASSIVE --- There are 100s of multi-axis gimbals and motors and servos scattered over about a square mile.. NOT just an issue of cleaning the surfaces to optical quality..

So many misconceptions in your "answers" -- it's not worth the time to correct.
But the LARGER ones should be obvious to a middle schooler.. There is NO VALID comparison to oil here because oil generates NEXT TO NO electricity.

And birds WILL mistake the mirrors for a lake or pond.. You should know by now that if I make a assertion like that --- it's because I'm confident of my knowledge..

California solar power plants singeing bird feathers

Of 34 birds reported dead or injured at Ivanpah in September, 15 had melted feathers. Dozens of other bird carcasses, not singed but with critical injuries, have been found in recent months at two solar projects about to go online on public land between Joshua Tree National Park and Blythe, Calif., a town of 20,800 on Interstate 10 near the Arizona border.

Last month, 19 birds, 16 of them water fowl or marsh birds, were found dead at Desert Sunlight, a 550-megawatt photovoltaic plant about 50 miles east of Indio, Calif. The carcass of a Yuma clapper rail, a federally endangered, medium-sized marsh bird, was found at the project in May.

"You've got to look at the relative width of that envelope that's off the tower," he said, referring to the solar flux coming off the mirrors that will surround the towers in concentric circles, spreading out over the project's 3,800-acre footprint.

Along with radiation injuries, scientists are concerned about bird deaths linked to confusion because of the shimmering expanses of solar panels in the desert. At photovoltaic projects such as Desert Sunlight, dark, flat solar panels are spread out over hundreds of acres in what may look like a big lake to migrating birds flying overhead.

Water or shore birds attempting to land on the panels either could hit them with enough force to injure themselves or, stranded on dry land, be unable to take off again.

Autopsies have shown the cause of death for many birds at Desert Sunlight has been blunt force trauma when the animals collide with panels mistaken for water, Davis said.

"With power towers, it's different," he said, referring to Ivanpah. "The solar flux has singed some birds. The heat has denatured the protein in their feathers, and they can't fly."

We already know this happens at massive PV solar farms. And depending on the birds eye view of a solar tower operation -- the same effect may cause them to mistake the mirrors as a water surface..