Socialized Medicine Doesn't Work

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by red states rule, Jul 27, 2007.

  1. red states rule
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    red states rule Senior Member

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    Another reason why government run health care does not work


    A Canadian Doctor Describes How Socialized Medicine Doesn't Work
    By DAVID GRATZER | Posted Thursday, July 26, 2007 4:30 PM PT

    I was once a believer in socialized medicine. As a Canadian, I had soaked up the belief that government-run health care was truly compassionate. What I knew about American health care was unappealing: high expenses and lots of uninsured people.

    My health care prejudices crumbled on the way to a medical school class. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute.

    Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care.

    I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic — with a three-year wait list; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.

    Government researchers now note that more than 1.5 million Ontarians (or 12% of that province's population) can't find family physicians. Health officials in one Nova Scotia community actually resorted to a lottery to determine who'd get a doctor's appointment.

    These problems are not unique to Canada — they characterize all government-run health care systems.

    Consider the recent British controversy over a cancer patient who tried to get an appointment with a specialist, only to have it canceled — 48 times. More than 1 million Britons must wait for some type of care, with 200,000 in line for longer than six months. In France, the supply of doctors is so limited that during an August 2003 heat wave — when many doctors were on vacation and hospitals were stretched beyond capacity — 15,000 elderly citizens died. Across Europe, state-of-the-art drugs aren't available. And so on.

    Single-payer systems — confronting dirty hospitals, long waiting lists and substandard treatment — are starting to crack, however. Canadian newspapers are filled with stories of people frustrated by long delays for care. Many Canadians, determined to get the care they need, have begun looking not to lotteries — but to markets.

    Dr. Jacques Chaoulli is at the center of this changing health care scene. In the 1990s, he organized a private Quebec practice — patients called him, he made house calls and then he directly billed his patients. The local health board cried foul and began fining him. The legal status of private practice in Canada remained murky, but billing patients, rather than the government, was certainly illegal, and so was private insurance.

    for the complete article
    http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=270338135202343
     
  2. Diuretic
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    Diuretic Permanently confused

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    Run! A sweeping generalisation! He's wrong by the way.

    And his little anecdote about the French system focuses on a crisis rather than the system as it runs normally.

    That was a pretty lightweight article but he's a free market pundit so I should have expected a partisan hack piece.
     
  3. red states rule
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    red states rule Senior Member

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    The UK have been having their own problems with government run health care
     
  4. Bern80
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    Bern80 Gold Member

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    And you quoting that one sentence is takeing a statement entirely out of context. Quite clearly the article is not jus about the heat wave in France. They are simply the writer's observations of what he has seen in countries that have universal health care. I did not read this post before my last response in the other thread we were conversing in and yet this man is saying he is seeing right now exactley what I said he would see. A massive strain on resources.

    He also isn't 'wrong' an you need to keep in mind what saying he is wrong implies. It implies that no other countries are experiencing waiting issues due to reduced cost or free healthcare. Are you prepared to make that claim?
    By saying he is wrong it also implies that most if not all countries with socialzied medicien are not experienceing problems similar to Canada's. Are you prepared to make that claim?

    According to the peice the author also is a doctor first. This being the first piece by him I've seen, I have no idea if he is a pundit or not. The claim that the article is partisan doesn't seem to be accurate either. there is no mention at all of poltical ideology one way or the other. They are one man's observations, nothing more, nothing less. What real reason do you have to write this off rather than seeing if there is a larger truth to his observations?
     
  5. Chips Rafferty
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    Chips Rafferty Active Member

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    It's no use trying to reason with them, Dee. They are too far gone for that.

    Just have some fun lampooning them and hope that one ot two of the less brainwashed among them will finally, like the chronic alcoholic, decide through sheer last ditch desperation to investigate what we at Americans Anonymous have to offer.

    Remember that, 'There but for the grace of a Christian hatin' convict ancestor go I!" :eusa_pray:

    Remember also what we were taught in A.A. on how to deal with self-delusional Yanks -


     
  6. Diuretic
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    Diuretic Permanently confused

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    No, I simply can't take the writer seriously when I read stuff like this. He's an ideologue and while he's entitled to write whatever he wishes from the perspective he feels most comfortable I also have the right to point out bias. I mean, that's what this is all about isn't it? Dialogue? So his claim that "all government-run health care systems" are like the one he saw in a winter in Winterpeg (and they don't nickname it that for nothing) should be taken seriously?

    Now pile that on his reference to an extreme heat episode in France in August (when France just about shuts down and goes on les vacances) and the generalisations are just incredible and I mean incredible.

    No, I am fine with a good discussion on the issues but this is just pure punditry, I can't take him seriously.

    Chips, you do lampooning much better than me, you've got the wit and vocabulary for it - and better judgement too, I can be a bit too cutting and the rapier turns into a cutlass. Btw did you read Matt Price in The Australian today? I know, I know, Murdoch rag, but he took the piss out of the feds mercilessly.
     
  7. Waterrescuedude
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    Waterrescuedude Active Member

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    Free health care you get what you pay for just remember that.
     
  8. Bern80
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    Bern80 Gold Member

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    I don't know if it's safe to assume this or not, but I will have to assume that you know who the author is better than I do because all it says in the article is that he's a doctor. Knowing little else about him I think I would take the word of a doctor in his critique of the healthcare industry. Can you post somethign that shows that his observations are meaningless.

    So far me repoir from you has been good, but I have to call on a really, really bad assumption or leaps of logic you made. First the one about teh cold. Your criticizism rests on the assumption that what he saw was abnormal due to the cold. yet no such leap can be made. there is only one sentence that mentions cold whether there. And all it does is tell what month, what year, and what the weather was like when he entered the hospital. it doesn't say the patients were there because of the cold, which you have implicitly assumed otherwise your argument doesn't work. It doesn't say all the old people were there cause they got cold are all have frostbite. It doesn't say why theyre there at all. But look at how much you assumed simply because you don't like the author for a reason not yet readily clear. You have absolutely no basis for the assumption that somehow he on the one day he walked into the hospital he walked into just a flukey day where the patients were stacked like cord wood. The only other possiblity is you think he is lieing about what he say all together. Which I have no reason to beleive

    But to paraphrase this is basically your argument: The authors words are meaningless because he happened upon a hospital when it was cold which was the reason so many people were being treated and why resources were spread thin. thus it can't be taken as a legitmate example of the flaws of universal healthcare.

    Well for one you don't know whether that's an everyday occurrence at said hospital or not. You chose to atribute it to the cold yet no such attribution can be made because the reason for the amoung of people in the ER is never given. You assumed it based solely on the fact teh person said it was cold out.

    Further you make it out to be that he is giveing just two one time occurance isolated incidence. 1) you really don't know if what happened is normal or not, especially in the canadien example and two just in what's posted alone he give 4 examples of the difficulties being faced by various countries that have universal healthcare. I have yet to even click on the link and see how many more examples there are.

    EDIT:

    okay the author is not a doctor i have found out, fotunately i still have no reason to beleive he's lieing about his observations. the rest of the article that is not posted on the board gives many more examples of how Canada's system is failing people. and get this there courts are trying to prosecute doctors who are willing to treat people who will pay to be seen sooner.
     
  9. Chips Rafferty
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    Chips Rafferty Active Member

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    Just read it. Matt is a bigger cynic than me! :rofl:
     
  10. Chips Rafferty
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    Chips Rafferty Active Member

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    Okay then. Hows about an estimate on how long it will take for the almost communistically equitable, capitalist "Trickle-Down System" in that worker's paradise of yours to give the 40% of Americans, that your religio-economic hero Calvin condemned as useless eaters because of their poverty, enough money to insure themselves?
     

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