Slate's Saletan: Dr. Watson Was Right

[William Joyce]

Blow me down.

http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/

Last month, James Watson, the legendary biologist, was condemned and forced into retirement after claiming that African intelligence wasn't "the same as ours." "Racist, vicious and unsupported by science," said the Federation of American Scientists. "Utterly unsupported by scientific evidence," declared the U.S. government's supervisor of genetic research. The New York Times told readers that when Watson implied "that black Africans are less intelligent than whites, he hadn't a scientific leg to stand on."

I wish these assurances were true. They aren't. Tests do show an IQ deficit, not just for Africans relative to Europeans, but for Europeans relative to Asians. Economic and cultural theories have failed to explain most of the pattern, and there's strong preliminary evidence that part of it is genetic. It's time to prepare for the possibility that equality of intelligence, in the sense of racial averages on tests, will turn out not to be true.

 

[mattskramer]

Blow me down.

http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/

Economic and cultural theories have failed to explain most of the pattern, and there's strong preliminary evidence that part of it is genetic.

We have had this debate before. Where is the scientific study that controls for economic and social differences? Where are the control groups? How about a study in which all national, economic, and social differences are equalized for races throughout a generation or two? Where is such a study? I’m certainly not aware of one. Without such a study (without total and precise control over all possible influential variables), I think that it all comes down to guess work and speculation.

 

[William Joyce]

Where is the scientific study that controls for economic and social differences? Where are the control groups? How about a study in which all national, economic, and social differences are equalized for races throughout a generation or two?

First, this assumes that "economic and social differences" don't FLOW FROM the intelligence difference. Second, any scientist will tell you that there is only so much you can control for. Third, they HAVE controlled for quite a bit, including showing that blacks from RICHER families have lower intelligence than whites from POORER families. Fourth and finally, no "study" will convince you of this, because you've already made up your mind!

 

[mattskramer]

First, this assumes that "economic and social differences" don't FLOW FROM the intelligence difference. Second, any scientist will tell you that there is only so much you can control for. Third, they HAVE controlled for quite a bit, including showing that blacks from RICHER families have lower intelligence than whites from POORER families. Fourth and finally, no "study" will convince you of this, because you've already made up your mind!

Conditions could be cyclical. Poverty and poor quality education could result in low IQ, which would then contribute to poverty and poor quality education. “Which came first, the chicken or the egg?” Yet, if you halt social and economic differences for a couple of generations, you can determine whether or not IQ differences flow from such conditions. I like the modifier that you placed into the thread “for quite a bit”. So, are you saying that there is a scientific and statistically sound study that concludes that blacks from RICHER families have lower intelligence than whites from POORER families”? Let’s see this study. Did it control for teaching and learning styles? Did it consider possible differences in these families’ value systems? One must control all possible intervening variables in order to conclude that IQ differences are based on genetics.

No. I have an open mind. It seems as though you are the one with a closed mind – ready to conclude that, genetically, different races are intellectually superior and inferior. I lean toward believing that there is no genetically predisposed difference in IQ – until I see a pure scientific study that controls all possible variables of influence.

 

[William Joyce]

are you saying that there is a scientific and statistically sound study that concludes that blacks from RICHER families have lower intelligence than whites from POORER families”? Let’s see this study. Did it control for teaching and learning styles? Did it consider possible differences in these families’ value systems? One must control all possible intervening variables in order to conclude that IQ differences are based on genetics.

It has been written about pretty extensively. But again, "control for teaching and learning styles"? For fuck's sake. You deceive us all with your sanctimonious "I'm an open-minded moderate" stance. On this issue, you aren't open-minded. Anybody can reject a conclusion they don't like by stating that "I don't have enough information." Nobody will EVER have enough information. You've experienced gravity every day of your life, but there's no guarantee you will tomorrow. And yet, you assume as much because it's rational.

Did you read the whole article in Slate, by the way?

And would you ask yourself the following question: Do I, mattskramer, WANT to believe in racial differences in intelligence, or NOT? Because I think very few folks can say they really don't care what the answer is here.

 

[mattskramer]

It has been written about pretty extensively. But again, "control for teaching and learning styles"? For fuck's sake. You deceive us all with your sanctimonious "I'm an open-minded moderate" stance. On this issue, you aren't open-minded. Anybody can reject a conclusion they don't like by stating that "I don't have enough information." Nobody will EVER have enough information. You've experienced gravity every day of your life, but there's no guarantee you will tomorrow. And yet, you assume as much because it's rational.

Did you read the whole article in Slate, by the way?

And would you ask yourself the following question: Do I, mattskramer, WANT to believe in racial differences in intelligence, or NOT? Because I think very few folks can say they really don't care what the answer is here.

No. It is not that complicated. There would be enough information. A Black family and a White family are neighbors. Have their lives monitored. Have their children taught in the same information in the same way in the same school and make sure that the other children treat them equally. Have them eat the same food and socialized the same way. The families must have the same amount of money for resources and buy the same things. After a few years have passed. Give each child an IQ test. The differences in their scores, in my opinion would not be significant. If the difference in scores were significant, I would readily concede that there is a genetic difference in IQ among the races.

I read the article. I that I got out of it was speculation and theories – no hard and fast conclusive controlled studies.

In answer to your question, I want to believe that there are equal IQ measures between and among races. Yet, I know that equal IQ test results do not exist. Therefore, I don’t get what I want. Yet, that there are IQ differences is not really even my interest. The question that I want answered with statistical proof is why there are differences.

 

[William Joyce]

The question that I want answered with statistical proof is why there are differences.

One theory is that the evolutionary pressures on whites in colder climates led to higher intelligence because they had to plan for longer periods of time, figure out how to survive in the cold, build shelters, make clothes, start fires, etc. Blacks never had to do that.

 

[mattskramer]

One theory is that the evolutionary pressures on whites in colder climates led to higher intelligence because they had to plan for longer periods of time, figure out how to survive in the cold, build shelters, make clothes, start fires, etc. Blacks never had to do that.

I think that Blacks had to face harsh environments (one way or another or in one type of climate or another too). I still think that IQ differences have more to do with learned helplessness, societal expectations, and a poor value system promoted by hip-hop, music, gangsta rap, and friends with bad attitudes. I guess that we agree to disagree. I appreciate your civil tone though. Happy turkey day.

 

[William Joyce]

I think that Blacks had to face harsh environments (one way or another or in one type of climate or another too). I still think that IQ differences have more to do with learned helplessness, societal expectations, and a poor value system promoted by hip-hop, music, gangsta rap, and friends with bad attitudes. I guess that we agree to disagree. I appreciate your civil tone though. Happy turkey day.

Happy T-day.