Science Takes A Look At “The Invention of the Jewish People”

[Procrustes Stretched]

Science Takes A Look At “The Invention of the Jewish People”

Studies Show Jews’ Genetic Similarity

Studies Show Jews? Genetic Similarity - NYTimes.com

The two genome surveys extend earlier studies based just on the Y chromosome, the genetic element carried by all men. They refute the suggestion made last year by the historian Shlomo Sand in his book “The Invention of the Jewish People” that Jews have no common origin but are a miscellany of people in Europe and Central Asia who converted to Judaism at various times.

---

Is this great news or what? How sound is the science? What does this say to those who say the Jews should go back home to Europe? Isn't science wonderful?

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Eh, this sort of thing comes and goes. There's obviously a bit of both, not surprising considering the heavy preference for intra-ethnic marriage in Jewish communities in ages past. Of course it's a preference, surely some have converted, some have intermarried, there's always a bit of hodgepodge in all of us. The important part about ethnic identity remains its social and psychological aspect. The fact that some people consider themselves and can say "I'm an ethnic ____" is what contributes and creates that identity, regardless of whether some Y chromosome is this or that; the fact that there is a few million people that say "I am Jewish" is enough to make "Jewish" a legitimate identity regardless of any genetic component, and it is likewise to millions of others who claim "I am Palestinian."

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Eh, this sort of thing comes and goes. There's obviously a bit of both, not surprising considering the heavy preference for intra-ethnic marriage in Jewish communities in ages past. Of course it's a preference, surely some have converted, some have intermarried, there's always a bit of hodgepodge in all of us. The important part about ethnic identity remains its social and psychological aspect. The fact that some people consider themselves and can say "I'm an ethnic ____" is what contributes and creates that identity, regardless of whether some Y chromosome is this or that; the fact that there is a few million people that say "I am Jewish" is enough to make "Jewish" a legitimate identity regardless of any genetic component, and it is likewise to millions of others who claim "I am Palestinian."

I think we are all related to Obama.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The important part about ethnic identity remains its social and psychological aspect.

interesting...

 

[eots]

an invented people.. just like those Palestinians

 

[Mr. H.]

Could I get a blood test to determine my Jewability?

 

[uscitizen]

If you believe the bible we are all cousins or closer.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

If you believe the bible we are all cousins or closer.

better .. if believe science.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

an invented people.. just like those Palestinians

really? And here I thought Christ was a Jew. Oh well

 

[Ariux]

Jews are an invented people. The only people who seem to have a problem accepting that fact are self-hating Evangelicals.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Jews are an invented people. The only people who seem to have a problem accepting that fact are self-hating Evangelicals.

Of course they are an invented people, as are every people.

But we have the Bible and Greek and Roman history all telling us there are a people called Jews.

 

[Ariux]

But we have the Bible and Greek and Roman history all telling us there are a people called Jews.

Point taken. Jews were a real people. But, Jewish people are an invented people.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

But we have the Bible and Greek and Roman history all telling us there are a people called Jews.

Point taken. Jews were a real people. But, Jewish people are an invented people.

in one sense, all people are an invented people and all nations are created by man. imagine that?

 

[American Horse]

Science Takes A Look At “The Invention of the Jewish People”

Studies Show Jews’ Genetic Similarity

Studies Show Jews? Genetic Similarity - NYTimes.com

The two genome surveys extend earlier studies based just on the Y chromosome, the genetic element carried by all men. They refute the suggestion made last year by the historian Shlomo Sand in his book “The Invention of the Jewish People” that Jews have no common origin but are a miscellany of people in Europe and Central Asia who converted to Judaism at various times.

---

Is this great news or what? How sound is the science? What does this say to those who say the Jews should go back home to Europe? Isn't science wonderful?

Thanks for that link; I was met with that same theory recently by a Ron Paul/Prison Planet ascriber, and I tried to give him a history lesson, since the Jewish people have a very well documented history. The gist of their reliance on that theory is that the Jewish people, particulary the ones in the Jewish state founded in 1948 are an aglomeration of Europeans with no real rights to a country in the region, that the original Jews of Judaea were dark skinned people versus the very light skinned people we are "told" are Jews today.

The problem for the Jewish people (Hebrews) was that they occupied a region that was at a crossroads, and was considered strategic by all the hegemons of history. Therefore their conduct had to be submissive for their very survival, but they had a way of rebelling, and were thus the first diaspora, a scattered seed from Portugal to India, and Poland to Africa.

When they were evicted by the Babylonians and the Romans the ordinary peasant was exempt from expulsion; it was only the higher echelons of society, the most influential of the population which were ejected. The peasants were allowed to remain behind because they were no threat. The peasants, living in the desert were darker skinned than than the patricians.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Science Takes A Look At “The Invention of the Jewish People”

Studies Show Jews’ Genetic Similarity

Studies Show Jews? Genetic Similarity - NYTimes.com

The two genome surveys extend earlier studies based just on the Y chromosome, the genetic element carried by all men. They refute the suggestion made last year by the historian Shlomo Sand in his book “The Invention of the Jewish People” that Jews have no common origin but are a miscellany of people in Europe and Central Asia who converted to Judaism at various times.

---

Is this great news or what? How sound is the science? What does this say to those who say the Jews should go back home to Europe? Isn't science wonderful?

Thanks for that link; I was met with that same theory recently by a Ron Paul/Prison Planet ascriber, and I tried to give him a history lesson, since the Jewish people have a very well documented history. The gist of their reliance on that theory is that the Jewish people, particulary the ones in the Jewish state founded in 1948 are an aglomeration of Europeans with no real rights to a country in the region, that the original Jews of Judaea were dark skinned people versus the very light skinned people we are "told" are Jews today.

The problem for the Jewish people (Hebrews) was that they occupied a region that was at a crossroads, and was considered strategic by all the hegemons of history. Therefore their conduct had to be submissive for their very survival, but they had a way of rebelling, and were thus the first diaspora, a scattered seed from Portugal to India, and Poland to Africa.

When they were evicted by the Babylonians and the Romans the ordinary peasant was exempt from expulsion; it was only the higher echelons of society, the most influential of the population which were ejected. The peasants were allowed to remain behind because they were no threat. The peasants, living in the desert were darker skinned than than the patricians.

you ought to speak with the group of Black Americans who say they are the lost tribe of Israel and that all Jews except them aren't real Jews.

I've had a few talks that almost went into violent confrontation. I guess I don't back down in an argument like most people do when confronted with the angry anti-semite

 

[American Horse]

Science Takes A Look At “The Invention of the Jewish People”

Studies Show Jews’ Genetic Similarity

Studies Show Jews? Genetic Similarity - NYTimes.com

The two genome surveys extend earlier studies based just on the Y chromosome, the genetic element carried by all men. They refute the suggestion made last year by the historian Shlomo Sand in his book “The Invention of the Jewish People” that Jews have no common origin but are a miscellany of people in Europe and Central Asia who converted to Judaism at various times.

---

Is this great news or what? How sound is the science? What does this say to those who say the Jews should go back home to Europe? Isn't science wonderful?

Thanks for that link; I was met with that same theory recently by a Ron Paul/Prison Planet ascriber, and I tried to give him a history lesson, since the Jewish people have a very well documented history. The gist of their reliance on that theory is that the Jewish people, particulary the ones in the Jewish state founded in 1948 are an aglomeration of Europeans with no real rights to a country in the region, that the original Jews of Judaea were dark skinned people versus the very light skinned people we are "told" are Jews today.

The problem for the Jewish people (Hebrews) was that they occupied a region that was at a crossroads, and was considered strategic by all the hegemons of history. Therefore their conduct had to be submissive for their very survival, but they had a way of rebelling, and were thus the first diaspora, a scattered seed from Portugal to India, and Poland to Africa.

When they were evicted by the Babylonians and the Romans the ordinary peasant was exempt from expulsion; it was only the higher echelons of society, the most influential of the population which were ejected. The peasants were allowed to remain behind because they were no threat. The peasants, living in the desert were darker skinned than than the patricians.

you ought to speak with the group of Black Americans who say they are the lost tribe of Israel and that all Jews except them aren't real Jews.

I've had a few talks that almost went into violent confrontation. I guess I don't back down in an argument like most people do when confronted with the angry anti-semite

There were parts of the diaspora that went into Africa very early on, down along the Persian Gulf. They were closely allied with the Carthaginians (present day Lebanese), so they felt comfortable along the trade routes to India, the Red Sea specifically, and that would include Ethiopia to where they also immigrated.

Always at the mercy of the status-quo-ante they would've married into the local population and blended early on.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

There were parts of the diaspora that went into Africa very early on, down along the Persian Gulf. They were closely allied with the Carthaginians (present day Lebanese), so they felt comfortable along the trade routes to India, the Red Sea specifically, and that would include Ethiopia to where they also immigrated.

Always at the mercy of the status-quo-ante they would've married into the local population and blended early on.

I have in my files somewhere, an argument about how when the Jews we know today were a tribal people, they left Egypt, and in their travels they entered into an area of the mideast/levant where there were a people who had a monist faith or one god belief system. It is suggested here is where the tribal group that leaves Egypt, absorbs the one true god idea. Before the Jews enter into the promised land they worship many false idols. The Patriarchs are always going to the mountains to worship the old gods -- or something like that.

anyway, it's a great theory based on mythologies that exist at the time and historical records. also, the idea that some people mention Moses parting the Red Sea during the time of some Pharaoh, only in the 20th century(?) we discover that Pharaoh's tomb. If that particular Pharaoh and his army were swept up and engulfed in the Red Sea .. anyway, interesting stuff.

 

[American Horse]

There were parts of the diaspora that went into Africa very early on, down along the Persian Gulf. They were closely allied with the Carthaginians (present day Lebanese), so they felt comfortable along the trade routes to India, the Red Sea specifically, and that would include Ethiopia to where they also immigrated.

Always at the mercy of the status-quo-ante they would've married into the local population and blended early on.

I have in my files somewhere, an argument about how when the Jews we know today were a tribal people, they left Egypt, and in their travels they entered into an area of the mideast/levant where there were a people who had a monist faith or one god belief system. It is suggested here is where the tribal group that leaves Egypt, absorbs the one true god idea. Before the Jews enter into the promised land they worship many false idols. The Patriarchs are always going to the mountains to worship the old gods -- or something like that.

anyway, it's a great theory based on mythologies that exist at the time and historical records. also, the idea that some people mention Moses parting the Red Sea during the time of some Pharaoh, only in the 20th century(?) we discover that Pharaoh's tomb. If that particular Pharaoh and his army were swept up and engulfed in the Red Sea .. anyway, interesting stuff.

It's said they got their monotheism from the ancient Egyptians, and their singular god Ra. That was the greatest early religious influence on them, supposedly. The Phoenicians are a very interesting people. They spawned the Carthaginians, who had a very interesting mythology/religion.

The Phonicians/Carthaginians dominated the coast coastal region of the Levant, a narrow strip of land with the mountains to their backs, present day Lebanon. They always founded their city-colonies on very difficult and inaccessible sites, and used the natives in the back-country as their agents and as their support system. They allied with the ancient Hebrews who lived just across the mountains. Recall that the Phoenicians created the first phoenetic alphabet, created for the management of inventories and recording stock as merchants in their shipping empire.

Eric Hoffer suggests in his books Before the Sabbath and Between the Devil and the Dragon that the ancient Hebrews, as agents of the Phoenicians in managing their warehouses in the Levant, became their scribes, giving rise to a society of "intellectuals" or a literate class. When the Phoenicians declined and were harassed by foes in the region the intellectuals were left without status and in their frustration became the first "prophets" of the old testament. That is, they became a class of literate men, with time to think, that wrote about and challenged the status quo in the conflict with the ruling classes. That resulted from their frustration from their loss of status, thus they were the first "fanatics" which are of course those who guide and lead the "true believers."

The Phoenicians dug the first canal to open the Mediterranean Sea to the Red sea to advance their trade into the Indian Ocean, and to the east. There are some interesting connections between the ancient founding Romans and Carthaginians, the basis of their conflict, given rise when the Carthaginians were allies with the Etruscans who supplied them cattle, and who in turn dominated early Rome with their nobles/patricians/best families/kings. That resentment was critical to the Roman cause to destroy Carthage, coming as it did from an ancient hatred of their early days under the servitude of Etruscan kings.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

There were parts of the diaspora that went into Africa very early on, down along the Persian Gulf. They were closely allied with the Carthaginians (present day Lebanese), so they felt comfortable along the trade routes to India, the Red Sea specifically, and that would include Ethiopia to where they also immigrated.

Always at the mercy of the status-quo-ante they would've married into the local population and blended early on.

I have in my files somewhere, an argument about how when the Jews we know today were a tribal people, they left Egypt, and in their travels they entered into an area of the mideast/levant where there were a people who had a monist faith or one god belief system. It is suggested here is where the tribal group that leaves Egypt, absorbs the one true god idea. Before the Jews enter into the promised land they worship many false idols. The Patriarchs are always going to the mountains to worship the old gods -- or something like that.

anyway, it's a great theory based on mythologies that exist at the time and historical records. also, the idea that some people mention Moses parting the Red Sea during the time of some Pharaoh, only in the 20th century(?) we discover that Pharaoh's tomb. If that particular Pharaoh and his army were swept up and engulfed in the Red Sea .. anyway, interesting stuff.

It's said they got their monotheism from the ancient Egyptians, and their singular god Ra. That was the greatest early religious influence on them, supposedly. The Phoenicians are a very interesting people. They spawned the Carthaginians, who had a very interesting mythology/religion.

The Phonicians/Carthaginians dominated the coast coastal region of the Levant, a narrow strip of land with the mountains to their backs, present day Lebanon. They always founded their city-colonies on very difficult and inaccessible sites, and used the natives in the back-country as their agents and as their support system. They allied with the ancient Hebrews who lived just across the mountains. Recall that the Phoenicians created the first phoenetic alphabet, created for the management of inventories and recording stock as merchants in their shipping empire.

Eric Hoffer suggests in his books Before the Sabbath and Between the Devil and the Dragon that the ancient Hebrews, as agents of the Phoenicians in managing their warehouses in the Levant, became their scribes, giving rise to a society of "intellectuals" or a literate class. When the Phoenicians declined and were harassed by foes in the region the intellectuals were left without status and in their frustration became the first "prophets" of the old testament. That is, they became a class of literate men, with time to think, that wrote about and challenged the status quo in the conflict with the ruling classes. That resulted from their frustration from their loss of status, thus they were the first "fanatics" which are of course those who guide and lead the "true believers."

The Phoenicians dug the first canal to open the Mediterranean Sea to the Red sea to advance their trade into the Indian Ocean, and to the east. There are some interesting connections between the ancient founding Romans and Carthaginians, the basis of their conflict, given rise when the Carthaginians were allies with the Etruscans who supplied them cattle, and who in turn dominated early Rome with their nobles/patricians/best families/kings. That resentment was critical to the Roman cause to destroy Carthage, coming as it did from an ancient hatred of their early days under the servitude of Etruscan kings.

The wandering Jews were a nomadic tribal group. In Egypt it seems they were still so. I will try and find the info about where they could have first encountered the monotheism. Egyptians believed in more than one god, no?

Anyway, comparative mythology studies by Joseph Campbell discuss this stuff.

great mythologies of agricultural goddess figures and male gods of war: the Aryans and Semites came into the lands of agricultural peoples around the Nile and other rivers...these new comers were herders and as such didn't live off the land and worship as did agricultural peoples. These new people had male gods of war and violence. The newcomers conquered and absorbed the agricultural societies in the area. The gods of the agricultural peoples were replaced with the god or gods of the conquerors.

I lay the story out poorly as I am tired. just wanted you to get an idea what I will try to get a hold of.

ltr
D

 

[editec]

If you believe the bible we are all cousins or closer.

And if you believe the geneticists we are ALL related to a single mother AND a single father.

The Proto-Mother existed many generations before the proto-father.

The theory is that the mankind very nearly went extinct twice.

The first time only the offspring of the proto-mother suvived which is why we all share her genentic material.

The second time mankind very nearly went extinct, ONLY the progeny of a SINGLE FATHER survived.

So, if the science is right (and I have no reason to imagine it isn't) ALL OF HUMANKIND shares the SAME single PROTO-MOTHER AND FATHER.

One cannot help but wonder what mankind might have been like if these two near extinction events had not killed off all other humans EXCEPT our direct ancestors.