Rummy and Iraq

[MJDuncan1982]

More evidence Iraq is not as Bush wants us to believe. Rumsfeld has said that more than likely only about 4/5s of the country will be able to vote in the upcoming election. Can we please get our heads out of the sand and call a spade a spade?

 

[5stringJeff]

 

[MJDuncan1982]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/24/iraq.main/index.html

 

[5stringJeff]

I think they've already announced their intentions to clear out some of these "no-go zones" by December. I doubt there will be many places where voting doesn't occur in January. I think Rumsfield is trying to say that elections will take place regardless, not that he doesn't care if people don't have the chance to vote.

 

[dilloduck]

If more than half of em turn out it'll be a bigger demonstration of democracy than the US. Is it going to be perfect NO. Anyone can go to Iraq right now and find an Iraqi to descibe the situation in a number of ways.

 

[MJDuncan1982]

Looks like I posted too soon. Rumsfeld has retracted his statement. Come on everyone...altogether: FLIP FLOPPER

 

[acludem]

lol...c'mon MJ, you know that only Democrats flip-flop! Republicans...well...they modify earlier positions.


acludem

 

[NightTrain]

Looks like I posted too soon. Rumsfeld has retracted his statement. Come on everyone...altogether: FLIP FLOPPER

I think it would be a GREAT idea to have voters gathering under the sniper tower!

 

[wade]

I think it is very interesting how they say they will clear out the "no-go" zones before the election - but won't do it now. Seems they know there will be a lot of US causualties and they don't want to have that before the election.

Wade.

 

[Annie]

Looks like I posted too soon. Rumsfeld has retracted his statement. Come on everyone...altogether: FLIP FLOPPER

Clarifying or correcting words is not a 'flip flop'. Here's the difference, Kerry gives 2 speeches in 2 days, with 2 opposing positions. Then when called on it, his response: "Both are correct, you don't understand the nuance..."

 

[wade]

This is your opinion on the effectiveness of our troops? Nice point to make so you can a quick barb!

Then why are we not in there clearing out the "no-go" zones right now? What sense does it make to wait? None! Except for election politics. And the absolute fact is that the longer we wait the less time we have to do the job before the Iraqi elections, and the less time we have to do the job the higher our causualties will be. Bush is trading US lives for votes.

It's not a matter of the effectiveness of our troops - they will be effective, but house to house fighting means serious losses. It means encountering booby-traps and ambushes, and those are usually found with lives.

Wade.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Then why are we not in there clearing out the "no-go" zones right now? What sense does it make to wait? None! Except for election politics. And the absolute fact is that the longer we wait the less time we have to do the job before the Iraqi elections, and the less time we have to do the job the higher our causualties will be. Bush is trading US lives for votes.

It's not a matter of the effectiveness of our troops - they will be effective, but house to house fighting means serious losses. It means encountering booby-traps and ambushes, and those are usually found with lives.

Wade.

Because of people like you wade. The libs. They have not long term vision and only criticize and chide.

You say you want to do it now, you're hawkish, but if they do do it, and incur casualties, you will revert to you "gloom and doom" scenarios. You will not stick with your position and say it was worth for democracy and security, which, it is.

 

[wade]

Because of people like you wade. The libs. They have not long term vision and only criticize and chide.

You say you want to do it now, you're hawkish, but if they do do it, and incur casualties, you will revert to you "gloom and doom" scenarios. You will not stick with your position and say it was worth for democracy and security, which, it is.

Don't be obtuse. What I'm saying pure and simple is that the only reason we are not in there clearing out the no-go zones today is election politics. It would look bad for Bush to encure another 1000 US causalties and 300 dead between today and the election. It would probably cost him the election, so he is not going to do it, which is deceptive.

It is also going to cost US lives, because it gives the insurgents months of preperation time, and because after the US election, there will be just 2-3 months, rather than 5 months, to clear these no-go zones. This timetable difference will be paid for in American blood.

I didn't say what my opinion is on the issue, just the costs of delaying the action for political reasons.

My personal feeling is that we should not have committed to january elections, and we should push them back 3-6 months right now. A discredited election will be worse than no election. Once a leader is elected, we are bound to support him for his term (5 years I think) - and if he is considered illegitmate we have a mess we will not be able to fix.

As I've said elsewhere, I think it is all for naught. I don't believe democracy will work in Iraq. The Arab-Islamic is not ready for and does not want democracy. Do you think it is just a fluke that there are no Arab democracies?

Wade.

 

[MJDuncan1982]

Two Arab democracies that I know of actually:

Turkey and Israel

Of course Israel doesn't really count for the type of Arabs we are discussing all the time but Turkey is an Islamic country. Its proximity to Europe probably has a lot to do with the fact it has embraced democracy. I think it would be helpul and insightful to take a good long look at the history and development of the Turkey of today.

 

[wade]

Isreal is not an Arab state.

Is Turkey a democracy?

The Turkish Constitution:

PREAMBLE

In line with the concept of nationalism outlined and the reforms and principles introduced by the founder of the Republic of Turkey, Atatürk, the immortal leader and the unrivaled hero, this Constitution, which affirms the eternal existence of the Turkish nation and motherland and the indivisible unity of the Turkish State, embodies;

The recognition that no protection shall be afforded to thoughts or opinions contrary to Turkish national interests, the principle of the indivisibility of the existence of Turkey with its State and territory, Turkish historical and moral values or the nationalism, principles, reforms and modernism of Atatürk and that, as required by the principle of secularism, ....

ARTICLE 13

Fundamental rights and freedoms may be restricted by law, in conformity with the letter and spirit of the Constitution, with the aim of safeguarding the indivisible integrity of the State with its territory and nation, national sovereignty, the Republic, national security, public order, general peace, the public interest, public morals and public health, and also for specific reasons set forth in the relevant Articles of the Constitution.

General and specific grounds for restrictions of fundamental rights and freedoms shall not conflict with the requirements of the democratic order of society and shall not be imposed for any purpose other than those for which they are prescribed. The general grounds for restriction set forth in this article shall apply for all fundamental rights and freedoms.
http://users.otenet.gr/~blacktom/Mustfa.html

Some other sources on "Turkish Democracy":

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/440218.stm

I will agree Turkey is more democratic than other Arab states, but this is a relative term. As long as citizens have no basic rights to freedom, I don't see how it can really be called a democracy. However, it does look like it may achieve this status if peace between the Kurds and the rest of the population can be maintained.

However it certainly was not a democracy prior to 2000, and its status as such now is in question.

Wade.

 

[theim]

As I've said elsewhere, I think it is all for naught. I don't believe democracy will work in Iraq. The Arab-Islamic is not ready for and does not want democracy. Do you think it is just a fluke that there are no Arab democracies?

You're right. Who the hell would want actual freedom when they could have murderous zealots forcing them around?

 

[wade]

You're right. Who the hell would want actual freedom when they could have murderous zealots forcing them around?

Grrr... You're making a big mistake. You are believing that someone raised in an entirely different situation and culture than you still thinks like you do. They do not. They believe that they must be obediant to their superiors, including their elders, their tribe, their religous sect, and especially their religous leaders. They believe that God has told them this is the way to live.

Wade.

 

[Comrade]

Grrr... You're making a big mistake. You are believing that someone raised in an entirely different situation and culture than you still thinks like you do. They do not. They believe that they must be obediant to their superiors, including their elders, their tribe, their religous sect, and especially their religous leaders. They believe that God has told them this is the way to live.

You're thinking of Iranians.

Iraqis were the ones who obeyed Saddam and his regime in all ways or die.

The religious agenda is growing but few really would back a Shi'ite ran state over a more Liberal Democracy for the rights of all. It's the safe bet. And they got the US behind them which, if intact, is all but a done deal for ensuring this in the upcoming years.

 

[wade]

Well Comrade, we disagree. First and formost these are Moslems - they don't believe in democracy, it's contrary to their upbringing and their religion. As soon as they can, they will revert to a totalitarian regime of some kind.

Wade.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Well Comrade, we disagree. First and formost these are Moslems - they don't believe in democracy, it's contrary to their upbringing and their religion. As soon as they can, they will revert to a totalitarian regime of some kind.

Wade.

You write off all notion of change for these people? That's pretty sick. You're the most racist person on the board.