Real Change for Gays/Lesbians

Discussion in 'Health and Lifestyle' started by catzmeow, May 12, 2009.

  1. catzmeow
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    catzmeow BANNED

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    Forget the stupid, symbolic, and ultimately meaningless Matthew Shephard Hate Crime Bill.

    Real change for gays and lesbians might include overturning "don't ask, don't tell"...TODAY.

    But god forbid the change should actually be REAL and SUBSTANTIVE...

    Gay soldier: Don’t fire me – amFIX - CNN.com Blogs
     
  2. Sky Dancer
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    Overturning "don't ask, don't tell" is an important issue for gays and lesbians.

    What YOU as a straight person doesn't get to do, is tell US gays and lesbians what our most important issue is. We get to decide that for ourselves. I happen to think marriage equality ought to be tackled first. Then gay and lesbian soldiers could marry and the whole 'don't ask, don't tell' bs would fall on its head.

    Stay consistent about your hate crime position, catz. Yeah, the passage of the Matthew Shepard Act is NOT important to YOU. I get that. Why would it?

    It's important to me that gays and lesbians are included in the hate crimes bill. The prosecutors could have used the funds to help with the trial of Matthew's murderers. I agree that Matthew Shepard's murder was stupid, symbolic and untimately meaningful to only gay people and people with compassion.

    Yeah, forget our own priorities, catz. Whatever you say counts. Uh huh.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2009
  3. KittenKoder
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    KittenKoder Senior Member

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    There are so many problems with the DADT policy, where to begin ...

    ... meh, I'll just do the one big one ... who the fuck cares if a gay person wants to fight to defend their freedoms to be gay ... seems like people should be happy that someone is willing to fight for their rights as much as others.
     
  4. catzmeow
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    Sky, you can be as retarded as you consistently prefer to be. As a professional who works in a criminal justice field, I'm telling you that hate crime legislation, IN GENERAL, is patently misguided in principle and execution.


    It's about efficacy, you deluded twit. Hate crimes legislation DOES NOT WORK in the criminal justice system. I'm speaking to that issue as a professional in the field.

    You don't care what the effects of this legislation are, you like the IDEA of it. That's the difference between us. I care what WORKS to actually reduce serious and violent crime and improve the status of gays/lesbians. I am not about meaningless symbolic gestures, though. I don't have time for those.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2009
  5. Sky Dancer
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    Catz, I could care less that you work in criminal justice. I've worked in criminal justice as well. Big deal.

    Hate crime legislation works because it puts addtional money into the legal system to try these crimes. Crime legislation does not deter crime.

    You are not lesbian or gay. You don't get to tell us what is worth OUR time to pursue. Get over yourself. You don't support hate crimes legislation. Fine. Get out of our way and let those of us who think Matthew Shephard's murder mattered get on with our work.

    Thank you for your support of marriage equality and reversing don't ask, don't tell.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2009
  6. del
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    so you're saying that unless this bill is passed, the murder of a gay wouldn't come to trial because there'd be no money for it?

    do you have idea how preposterous that statement is?

    i didn't think so.

    loon.
     
  7. catzmeow
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    Every single chargeable offense under the hate crime legislation is ALREADY a crime on the books that is regularly charged and tried in communities. That's what you don't get. These cases are already chargeable offenses and are already tried routinely in cases around the country. The lack of hate crime legislation did not keep Wyoming criminal justice professionals from charging and trying the perpetrators, and obtaining the maximum possible sentence in that case.

    I deal with the same thing, routinely, with gang cases, and prosecutors who want to use RICO statutes with gangs. The simple fact of the matter is that RICO statutes are so labor intensive, and require so much effort that the bang is not worth the buck. Gang members, by their very natures, are so criminally involved that one can generally prosecute them effectively for the actual offenses they commit without going to greater lengths.

    I have the same concerns about hate crime legislation that I have about gang enhancements. In several states, these statutes have been struck down because of perceived constitutional violations. So, passing these laws has become an expensive exercise in testing the limits of the constitution and bill of rights. Our time (and, frankly, our MONEY) is much better spent in aggressively investigating and prosecuting people for ALL ACTUAL CRIMINAL ACTS, rather than creating special categories of victims.

    That actually has the possibility of reducing crimes, whereas these special laws take away money from other aspects of dealing with crime to focus on special groups.

    Furthermore, there is a good chance that they will ultimately be found to be unconstitutional. For that reason, and because criminal groups desire to create fear in all types of communities, rather than concentrating on the agenda of the criminal, let's reduce their capacity to create fear and mayhem by prosecuting all serious crimes--seriously.

    For the record, I support overturning "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," for the same reason I am opposed to hate crimes legislation -- because it infringes on civil liberties.

    If you consider posting on a message board to be "work", god help you.
     
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  8. Sky Dancer
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    Advocating for hate crimes legislation is work--just ask the Shepards. I have heard every one of your tired arguments against hate crimes legislation. Too bad. It's the law of the land since 1968. All the Matthew Shepard Act does is add gays and lesbians to the list. If you want to buck the legal trend of the last 41 years, knock yourself out.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2009
  9. catzmeow
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    As stated, you don't care whether it works or not. You just like the idea and the symbolism.

    Frankly, I care about crime victims--of all kinds, regardless of race, gender, and sexual orientation. That's why I don't have time for empty gestures.

    But, to each their own.

    However, it would be nice of Obama would sack up and eliminate don't ask/don't tell. I'm sure we can agree on that.
     
  10. Nik
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    Nik Senior Member

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    Symbolism matters. See the first elected black president for an example.
     

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