Raise the Debt Limit? That's the WRONG question.

[Google]

What!?! So you admit that the debt can be serviced? This is improvement.

Now you believe that the annual revenue won't be able to service the military budget? Where are you getting this?

Fact: Debt, Social Security and military obligations can be serviced. I'll show you the numbers, prove me wrong.

I have never said otherwise. I have always admitted that the debt could be serviced without borrowing. I've also, repeatedly, said that that is not the point. If we can't pay even one of contractual obligations our credit rating will be lowered and that is bad.

So now, can you show us the numbers proving we can pay EVERY obligation without borrowing?

So what you are saying is raising the debt ceiling is a guarantee that America's credit rating won't be lowered? The threat of a lowered credit rating has been made several times in the last two years, so if that is what you believe that the country must raise the debt limit from $14,000,000,000,000 to $16,000,000,000,000 to secure the future economy of this country you are insane. Spain, Greece, Italy, there are so many examples of just how flawed your logic is, but hey let's continue to spend $200 billion a month more than the budget.

Also, since you are being honest, and admit that not raising the debt ceiling doesn't mean unavoidable default why is your home-boy out there lying to the American people and threatening seniors?

The decision to prioritize payments would fall on the Treasury department if the debt limit isn't increased, and the only way any of those things would happen is if Obama allows it to happen.

 

[Ravi]

A little hyperbole at the end, but it was refreshing to see a substantive post from you.

I guess I just don't share your pessimism.

There is nothing "normal" about any government shutdown. ALL of them, regardless of motivations on either side, represent a bit of a breakdown in the political process.

But WHATEVER the reason may be for ANY shutdown, the contingency plans are in effect (and have been for a long time). And joking aside, you gotta KNOW that the first order of business for the government is making sure they continue to have the revenues rolling in.

What is the contingency plan?

And that wasn't hyperbole. A world wide crash would surely end life as we know it and plunge us deeper into unemployment, etc., than we currently are.

A refusal to irresponsibly raise the debt limit would not entail a world wide crash.

Are you sure? If we can no longer be given credit how are we to pay our bills? If my company's credit limit was done away with it would most certainly endanger my company.

I'd still like to know about this contingency plan you claim we have.

 

[Google]

Not one person on this board has explained why default is an unavoidable consequence

You're right. There was "not one". There have actually been 5 or 6 of us.

What are you smoking?!?!?! You just said "I have never said otherwise. I have always admitted that the debt could be serviced". That is admitting that the United States Government will not default on its creditors. IT WILL NOT CAUSE DEFAULT.

You admit it and then take it back right after

 

[Liability]

I don't share your optimism. This isn't a "normal" government shut down. What ever money we DO have will have to go to our debtors before they go to anyone else. Else we default and start a change reaction that ends life as we know it.

A little hyperbole at the end, but it was refreshing to see a substantive post from you.

I guess I just don't share your pessimism.

There is nothing "normal" about any government shutdown. ALL of them, regardless of motivations on either side, represent a bit of a breakdown in the political process.

But WHATEVER the reason may be for ANY shutdown, the contingency plans are in effect (and have been for a long time). And joking aside, you gotta KNOW that the first order of business for the government is making sure they continue to have the revenues rolling in.

What is the contingency plan?

And that wasn't hyperbole. A world wide crash would surely end life as we know it and plunge us deeper into unemployment, etc., than we currently are.

Government Agency shutdown plan details: What is my agency’s plan if the government shuts down? - The Federal Eye - The Washington Post

 

[DontBeStupid]

there has been no evidence presented.

THAT'S THE POINT!!

Wow, are you choosing to be this dense?

There is no evidence, none, zero, that the government will be able to pay all its obligations without a debt ceiling increase. You have not presented any. No one on this board has presented any. The GOP certainly hasn't presented any. You have absolutely nothing supporting your claim that all will be fine, and you are not even trying to find evidence to support your claim.

You. Clearly. Don't. Give. A. Shit. About. Your. Country.

 

[oldsalt]

What is the contingency plan?

And that wasn't hyperbole. A world wide crash would surely end life as we know it and plunge us deeper into unemployment, etc., than we currently are.

A refusal to irresponsibly raise the debt limit would not entail a world wide crash.

Are you sure? If we can no longer be given credit how are we to pay our bills? If my company's credit limit was done away with it would most certainly endanger my company.

I'd still like to know about this contingency plan you claim we have.

No, they are not 'sure'. They're parroting what they hear. So, economists are wrong, and a couple of teabaggers are right. Just plain stupid.

 

[Ravi]

August 2011 figures?

LOL!

No.

I have them committed to memory.

You could admit you asked a phony question. But you won't.

I would admit it if I had done it. But I didn't. Again, you post with no numbers to back up your statement. You seem to be under the impression that whatever we bring in in revenue will be enough to cover our obligations. But you don't know that for certain and don't seem to care to find out for certain.

Who does that? Do you hate Obama that much that you don't care what happens to your country?

Maybe these are the numbers you were looking for:

The U.S. monthly revenue totals $172 billion, while its monthly obligations total $307 billion. Payments for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, interest on the debt, troops and defense needs will gobble up the entire monthly income.

There would be no money for student loans just as young people are heading back to school, no money for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, border security, health research, food inspections, Schumer said.

Stark realities of U.S. life without credit | Front Row Washington

 

[DontBeStupid]

Not one person on this board has explained why default is an unavoidable consequence

You're right. There was "not one". There have actually been 5 or 6 of us.

What are you smoking?!?!?! You just said "I have never said otherwise. I have always admitted that the debt could be serviced". That is admitting that the United States Government will not default on its creditors. IT WILL NOT CAUSE DEFAULT.

You admit it and then take it back right after

You should look up the definition of default before we continue this discussion.

 

[Ravi]

A little hyperbole at the end, but it was refreshing to see a substantive post from you.

I guess I just don't share your pessimism.

There is nothing "normal" about any government shutdown. ALL of them, regardless of motivations on either side, represent a bit of a breakdown in the political process.

But WHATEVER the reason may be for ANY shutdown, the contingency plans are in effect (and have been for a long time). And joking aside, you gotta KNOW that the first order of business for the government is making sure they continue to have the revenues rolling in.

What is the contingency plan?

And that wasn't hyperbole. A world wide crash would surely end life as we know it and plunge us deeper into unemployment, etc., than we currently are.

Government Agency shutdown plan details: What is my agency’s plan if the government shuts down? - The Federal Eye - The Washington Post

That was a shutdown over the budget, not the debt limit.

 

[Google]

there has been no evidence presented.

THAT'S THE POINT!!

Wow, are you choosing to be this dense?

There is no evidence, none, zero, that the government will be able to pay all its obligations without a debt ceiling increase. You have not presented any. No one on this board has presented any. The GOP certainly hasn't presented any. You have absolutely nothing supporting your claim that all will be fine, and you are not even trying to find evidence to support your claim.

You. Clearly. Don't. Give. A. Shit. About. Your. Country.

The Annual US Federal Government Revenue (2011) $2,173.7 Billion (Source: US Federal Revenue 2011 - Charts Tables) Amount of Service Annual US Government Debt Obligation $240 billion [source (url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt). $240 billion out of $2,173 billion to service the debt.

Is any the above that incorrect? Why did you say three posts up that you believe that the US Federal debt can be serviced on current revenue.

The point here is default. I'm not saying that the government can fund everything that it is currently attempting to and yes there have been plenty of evidence of that, lots, more than zero, hell the entire reason we have to raise the debt ceiling is because the government can't control deficit spending now.

 

[Google]

You're right. There was "not one". There have actually been 5 or 6 of us.

What are you smoking?!?!?! You just said "I have never said otherwise. I have always admitted that the debt could be serviced". That is admitting that the United States Government will not default on its creditors. IT WILL NOT CAUSE DEFAULT.

You admit it and then take it back right after

You should look up the definition of default before we continue this discussion.

You are demonstrating why the plurality of Americans are against this administration's stance.

 

[Liability]

there has been no evidence presented.

THAT'S THE POINT!!

Wow, are you choosing to be this dense?

There is no evidence, none, zero, that the government will be able to pay all its obligations without a debt ceiling increase. You have not presented any. No one on this board has presented any. The GOP certainly hasn't presented any. You have absolutely nothing supporting your claim that all will be fine, and you are not even trying to find evidence to support your claim.

You. Clearly. Don't. Give. A. Shit. About. Your. Country.

First off, your improper snip of the quote changes the import of what I said, dipshit. When you have to engage in that crap to "debate," you are already the loser.

The government will remain in operation as the contingency plans demonstrate.

What gets PAID has to be the debt obligations, first, for reasons that have already been explained to death.

Since resources ARE actually limited (especially when you can't just make up the difference by "borrowing" or printing money etc) the result is that some TOUGH choices WILL then have to be made as to whatt gets paid out of whatever is left.

But that does not mean that the debt doesn't get paid.

It's the other stuff that becomes problematic.

Since your argument is predicated on your ongoing dishonesty and the upshot of your irrational position is that we would be compelled to continue on this disastrous national economic course,

You. Clearly. Don't. Give. A. Shit. About. Your. Country.

 

[Google]

You're right. There was "not one". There have actually been 5 or 6 of us.

What are you smoking?!?!?! You just said "I have never said otherwise. I have always admitted that the debt could be serviced". That is admitting that the United States Government will not default on its creditors. IT WILL NOT CAUSE DEFAULT.

You admit it and then take it back right after

You should look up the definition of default before we continue this discussion.

What is a default?

In this case, a default would be the failure by the U.S. Treasury to make payments of principal or interest on its debt in a timely manner.

Is that definition acceptable to you? If so then once again not raising the debt limit will not cause this to happen.

 

[Google]

Here is a great report released by the Bipartisan Policy Center (BPC) http://www.bipartisanpolicy.org/sites/default/files/Debt Ceiling Analysis FINAL_0.pdf

"The BPC study found that the United States is likely to hit the debt limit sometime between August 2 and August 9. “It’s a 44 percent overnight cut in federal spending” if Congress hits the debt limit, [BPC's Jay] Powell said. The BPC study projects there will be $172 billion in federal revenues in August and $307 billion in authorized expenditures. That means there’s enough money to pay for, say, interest on the debt ($29 billion), Social Security ($49.2 billion), Medicare and Medicaid ($50 billion), active duty troop pay ($2.9 billion), veterans affairs programs ($2.9 billion)."

Obama has lied and is trying like hell to scare Americans into allowing the government to destroy my child's future.

 

[oldsalt]

What are you smoking?!?!?! You just said "I have never said otherwise. I have always admitted that the debt could be serviced". That is admitting that the United States Government will not default on its creditors. IT WILL NOT CAUSE DEFAULT.

You admit it and then take it back right after

You should look up the definition of default before we continue this discussion.

What is a default?

In this case, a default would be the failure by the U.S. Treasury to make payments of principal or interest on its debt in a timely manner.

Is that definition acceptable to you? If so then once again not raising the debt limit will not cause this to happen.

You clearly have no grasp of the situation.

 

[oldsalt]

Here is a great report released by the Bipartisan Policy Center (BPC) http://www.bipartisanpolicy.org/sites/default/files/Debt Ceiling Analysis FINAL_0.pdf

"The BPC study found that the United States is likely to hit the debt limit sometime between August 2 and August 9. “It’s a 44 percent overnight cut in federal spending” if Congress hits the debt limit, [BPC's Jay] Powell said. The BPC study projects there will be $172 billion in federal revenues in August and $307 billion in authorized expenditures. That means there’s enough money to pay for, say, interest on the debt ($29 billion), Social Security ($49.2 billion), Medicare and Medicaid ($50 billion), active duty troop pay ($2.9 billion), veterans affairs programs ($2.9 billion)."

Obama has lied and is trying like hell to scare Americans into allowing the government to destroy my child's future.

You're not even looking at everything. You're cherry picking. Good Luck with that.

 

[DontBeStupid]

In this case, a default would be the failure by the U.S. Treasury to make payments of principal or interest on its debt in a timely manner.

/fail

/end thread

 

[DontBeStupid]

But that does not mean that the debt doesn't get paid.

It's the other stuff that becomes problematic.

Which is what we've been talking about all this time.

Glad to see after 4 pages you are caught up.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Instead of debating and discussing the question "should we raise the debt limit?" the BETTER topic for serious discussion SHOULD be:

"How much should we immediately LOWER the Debt Limit?"

The answer should require, of course, that we meet all current obligations as a condition of ANY and ALL possible answers. No defaults permitted.

That limits the money available to spend on other stuff, of course, so the NEXT question should then be:

"How do we divvy up the balance of our resources?"

That's brilliant!!!!!

That's the correct focus, of course.

The question is: Which totally unnecessary and destructive federal programs and departments can be immediately whacked like Corleone enemies during Little Anthony's baptism?

 

[Google]

Here is a great report released by the Bipartisan Policy Center (BPC) http://www.bipartisanpolicy.org/sites/default/files/Debt Ceiling Analysis FINAL_0.pdf

"The BPC study found that the United States is likely to hit the debt limit sometime between August 2 and August 9. “It’s a 44 percent overnight cut in federal spending” if Congress hits the debt limit, [BPC's Jay] Powell said. The BPC study projects there will be $172 billion in federal revenues in August and $307 billion in authorized expenditures. That means there’s enough money to pay for, say, interest on the debt ($29 billion), Social Security ($49.2 billion), Medicare and Medicaid ($50 billion), active duty troop pay ($2.9 billion), veterans affairs programs ($2.9 billion)."

Obama has lied and is trying like hell to scare Americans into allowing the government to destroy my child's future.

You're not even looking at everything. You're cherry picking. Good Luck with that.

Yeah I am cherry picking, I also gave the link for the entire report. I am not being disingenuous by using information out of that report to prove my point that the president lied when he threatened to withhold social security checks and that the country will default on it's debt.

Do you have anything to add to the conversation?