Question For New Yorkers;Is It Too Cold At Night For OWS? Have Many Of Them Vanished?

[Dragon]

I think it will fizzle out in the northern tier states, except for a few hardcore supporters, when the snow starts flying.

I'll make you a prediction that while those occupying the park on a day in, day out basis may decline somewhat, it will continue to make headlines and will swell for major events to large numbers. Again, that's assuming it isn't cleared out by the police.

They may keep it alive in the southern tier states, but then I haven't seen much activity for OWS there, outside of Atlanta.

Most of the energy has gone to New York. You have to remember that these are not independent movements, it's all one integrated, coordinated whole. If fewer people are taking part in New York, that means more will be elsewhere.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

I think it will fizzle out in the northern tier states, except for a few hardcore supporters, when the snow starts flying.

I'll make you a prediction that while those occupying the park on a day in, day out basis may decline somewhat, it will continue to make headlines and will swell for major events to large numbers. Again, that's assuming it isn't cleared out by the police.

They may keep it alive in the southern tier states, but then I haven't seen much activity for OWS there, outside of Atlanta.

Most of the energy has gone to New York. You have to remember that these are not independent movements, it's all one integrated, coordinated whole. If fewer people are taking part in New York, that means more will be elsewhere.

I'm curious as to why you say that fewer protesters in NYC will mean more protesters in other areas.

Will someone be paying to transport protesters to other cities? If so, where will the money to do that come from? And who will be co-coordinating the funds to move and house them?

 

[Dragon]

I'm curious as to why you say that fewer protesters in NYC will mean more protesters in other areas.

I say that because I know how organized this movement is. This young adult generation is something America hasn't seen in a long time, not since the 1930s and early 1940s, in fact.

Are you familiar with the generation-cycle theory of history developed by the late William Strauss and Neil Howe, and published in their books Generations and The Fourth Turning? In capsule, it holds that we go through an interlocking cycle of generations and "turnings," the latter being shifts in public mood and events. Both cycles are fourfold. The generations are the Idealist, Reactive, Civic, and Adaptive types (recurring in that order), while the turnings are the High, Awakening, Unraveling, and Crisis, again in that order.

Each turning is made to be what it is by the generations that are entering the four phases of life (elderhood, midlife, young adulthood, childhood), and each turning features a characteristic pattern of child rearing and coming-of-age experience that establishes the new generations.

We are currently in a Crisis turning. The last time we went through a Crisis it began with the 1929 stock market crash and ended a little after World War II was over. A Crisis turning features Civics as the coming of age generation. Our current Civics, who are called the Millennial generation, were born from 1982 to 2005, so they are aged six to 29 and dominate OWS. The last Civic generation was born 1901 to 1924, and we call them the GI Generation or the so-called "Greatest" generation. They exhibited the same kind of civic consciousness (hence the name) and organization and team consciousness that the Millennials do. But the Millennials have a tool that empowers their natural tendencies towards teamwork and organization that the GIs never had: the Internet. And it's plain amazing what they're doing with it.

Much of this was predicted by Strauss and Howe years ago, including the nature of the Civic generation and the fact that we would enter a Crisis turning and roughly when (they predicted some time between 2005 and 2010, and the actual start date seems to have been 2008).

Long story short, this protest is arising out of a highly organized on-line movement that preceded it. It's leaderless, but that doesn't mean disorganized, not with a Civic gen.

Will someone be paying to transport protesters to other cities? If so, where will the money to do that come from? And who will be co-coordinating the funds to move and house them?

Organized transportation is indeed very likely. A lot of money has already been raised. Here, check this out:

"1. The Occupy Wall Street movement, through the local general assembly, should elect an executive committee comprised of 11 people or some other odd number of people that is manageable for meetings. Ideally this committee should represent each city in the U.S. that is being occupied.

"2. The executive committee will then attend to local issues such as obtaining permits, paying for public sanitation and dealing with the media. More important, the executive committee shall plan and organize the election of the 870 delegates to a National General Assembly between now and July 4, 2012.

"3. As stated in the 99% declaration, each of the 435 congressional districts will form an election committee to prepare ballots and invite citizens in those districts to run as delegates to a National General Assembly in Philadelphia beginning on July 4, 2012 and convening until October 2012.

"4. Each of the 435 congressional districts will elect one man and one woman to attend the National General Assembly. The vote will be by direct democratic ballot regardless of voter registration status as long as the voter has reached the age of 18 and is a US citizen. This is not a sexist provision. Women are dramatically under-represented in politics even though they comprise more than 50% of the U.S. population.

"5. The executive committee will act as a central point to solve problems, raise money to pay for the expenses of the election of the National General Assembly and make sure all 870 delegates are elected prior to the meeting on July 4th.

"6. The executive committee would also arrange a venue in Philadelphia to accommodate the delegates attending the National General Assembly where the declaration of values, petition of grievances and platform would be proposed, debated, voted on and approved. The delegates would also elect a chair from their own ranks to run the meetings of the congress and break any tie votes. We will also need the expertise of a gifted parliamentarian to keep the meetings moving smoothly and efficiently.

"7. The final declaration, platform and petition of grievances, after being voted upon by the 870 delegates to the National General Assembly would be formally presented by the 870 delegates to all three branches of government and all candidates running for federal public office in November 2012. Thus, the delegates would meet from July 4, 2012 to sometime in early to late October 2012.

"8. The delegates to the National General Assembly would then vote on a time period, presently suggested as one year, to give the newly elected government in November an opportunity to redress the petition of grievances. This is our right as a People under the First Amendment.

"9. If the government fails to redress the petition of grievances and drastically change the path this country is on, the delegates will demand the resignation and recall of all members of congress, the president and even the Supreme Court and call for new elections by, of and for the PEOPLE with 99 days of the resignation demand.

"10. There will NEVER be any call for violence by the delegates even if the government refuses to redress the grievances and new elections are called for by the delegates. Nor will any delegate agree to take any money, job promise, or gifts from corporations, unions or any other private source. Any money donated or raised by the executive committee may only be used for publicizing the vote, the National General Assembly, and for travel expenses and accommodation at the National General Assembly ONLY. All books and records will be published openly online so that everyone may see how much money is raised and how the money is spent each month. There will be no money allowed to "purchase" delegate votes as we have in the current government. No corporate "sponsorship"."

This is the kind of thing that's happening, and most of it is happening out of sight of anyone who isn't involved in the movement, because it's all on line. That level of it has been happening for years. I knew that something like OWS was going to happen long before it did, although I didn't know the specifics (and they emerged somewhat spontaneously).

So while it's not currently planned, the organization and funds to bus people to events anywhere in the country certainly does exist. All it would need is a reason, and the police shutting down OWS would qualify as a reason.

Finally, don't let the insistence on nonviolence fool you. This is potentially a revolutionary movement. Revolution can perhaps be forestalled by real reform, but not by anything else. A revolution doesn't have to be violent; the overthrow of the Soviet Union for example was not.

The last Civic generation unionized the workplace, won World War II, ended Jim Crow, built the interstate highways, gave us (either through their votes and organization or when they were in charge of the government) Social Security, Medicare, and the EPA, and put men on the moon. And that was without the Internet as an organizing tool.

It would be a great mistake to underestimate our new Civics. They are very powerful, and will have a tremendous impact on our institutions throughout their lives. This is only the beginning.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

I'm curious as to why you say that fewer protesters in NYC will mean more protesters in other areas.

I say that because I know how organized this movement is. This young adult generation is something America hasn't seen in a long time, not since the 1930s and early 1940s, in fact.

Are you familiar with the generation-cycle theory of history developed by the late William Strauss and Neil Howe, and published in their books Generations and The Fourth Turning? In capsule, it holds that we go through an interlocking cycle of generations and "turnings," the latter being shifts in public mood and events. Both cycles are fourfold. The generations are the Idealist, Reactive, Civic, and Adaptive types (recurring in that order), while the turnings are the High, Awakening, Unraveling, and Crisis, again in that order.

Each turning is made to be what it is by the generations that are entering the four phases of life (elderhood, midlife, young adulthood, childhood), and each turning features a characteristic pattern of child rearing and coming-of-age experience that establishes the new generations.

We are currently in a Crisis turning. The last time we went through a Crisis it began with the 1929 stock market crash and ended a little after World War II was over. A Crisis turning features Civics as the coming of age generation. Our current Civics, who are called the Millennial generation, were born from 1982 to 2005, so they are aged six to 29 and dominate OWS. The last Civic generation was born 1901 to 1924, and we call them the GI Generation or the so-called "Greatest" generation. They exhibited the same kind of civic consciousness (hence the name) and organization and team consciousness that the Millennials do. But the Millennials have a tool that empowers their natural tendencies towards teamwork and organization that the GIs never had: the Internet. And it's plain amazing what they're doing with it.

Much of this was predicted by Strauss and Howe years ago, including the nature of the Civic generation and the fact that we would enter a Crisis turning and roughly when (they predicted some time between 2005 and 2010, and the actual start date seems to have been 2008).

Long story short, this protest is arising out of a highly organized on-line movement that preceded it. It's leaderless, but that doesn't mean disorganized, not with a Civic gen.

Will someone be paying to transport protesters to other cities? If so, where will the money to do that come from? And who will be co-coordinating the funds to move and house them?

Organized transportation is indeed very likely. A lot of money has already been raised. Here, check this out:

"1. The Occupy Wall Street movement, through the local general assembly, should elect an executive committee comprised of 11 people or some other odd number of people that is manageable for meetings. Ideally this committee should represent each city in the U.S. that is being occupied.

"2. The executive committee will then attend to local issues such as obtaining permits, paying for public sanitation and dealing with the media. More important, the executive committee shall plan and organize the election of the 870 delegates to a National General Assembly between now and July 4, 2012.

"3. As stated in the 99% declaration, each of the 435 congressional districts will form an election committee to prepare ballots and invite citizens in those districts to run as delegates to a National General Assembly in Philadelphia beginning on July 4, 2012 and convening until October 2012.

"4. Each of the 435 congressional districts will elect one man and one woman to attend the National General Assembly. The vote will be by direct democratic ballot regardless of voter registration status as long as the voter has reached the age of 18 and is a US citizen. This is not a sexist provision. Women are dramatically under-represented in politics even though they comprise more than 50% of the U.S. population.

"5. The executive committee will act as a central point to solve problems, raise money to pay for the expenses of the election of the National General Assembly and make sure all 870 delegates are elected prior to the meeting on July 4th.

"6. The executive committee would also arrange a venue in Philadelphia to accommodate the delegates attending the National General Assembly where the declaration of values, petition of grievances and platform would be proposed, debated, voted on and approved. The delegates would also elect a chair from their own ranks to run the meetings of the congress and break any tie votes. We will also need the expertise of a gifted parliamentarian to keep the meetings moving smoothly and efficiently.

"7. The final declaration, platform and petition of grievances, after being voted upon by the 870 delegates to the National General Assembly would be formally presented by the 870 delegates to all three branches of government and all candidates running for federal public office in November 2012. Thus, the delegates would meet from July 4, 2012 to sometime in early to late October 2012.

"8. The delegates to the National General Assembly would then vote on a time period, presently suggested as one year, to give the newly elected government in November an opportunity to redress the petition of grievances. This is our right as a People under the First Amendment.

"9. If the government fails to redress the petition of grievances and drastically change the path this country is on, the delegates will demand the resignation and recall of all members of congress, the president and even the Supreme Court and call for new elections by, of and for the PEOPLE with 99 days of the resignation demand.

"10. There will NEVER be any call for violence by the delegates even if the government refuses to redress the grievances and new elections are called for by the delegates. Nor will any delegate agree to take any money, job promise, or gifts from corporations, unions or any other private source. Any money donated or raised by the executive committee may only be used for publicizing the vote, the National General Assembly, and for travel expenses and accommodation at the National General Assembly ONLY. All books and records will be published openly online so that everyone may see how much money is raised and how the money is spent each month. There will be no money allowed to "purchase" delegate votes as we have in the current government. No corporate "sponsorship"."

This is the kind of thing that's happening, and most of it is happening out of sight of anyone who isn't involved in the movement, because it's all on line. That level of it has been happening for years. I knew that something like OWS was going to happen long before it did, although I didn't know the specifics (and they emerged somewhat spontaneously).

So while it's not currently planned, the organization and funds to bus people to events anywhere in the country certainly does exist. All it would need is a reason, and the police shutting down OWS would qualify as a reason.

Finally, don't let the insistence on nonviolence fool you. This is potentially a revolutionary movement. Revolution can perhaps be forestalled by real reform, but not by anything else. A revolution doesn't have to be violent; the overthrow of the Soviet Union for example was not.

The last Civic generation unionized the workplace, won World War II, ended Jim Crow, built the interstate highways, gave us (either through their votes and organization or when they were in charge of the government) Social Security, Medicare, and the EPA, and put men on the moon. And that was without the Internet as an organizing tool.

It would be a great mistake to underestimate our new Civics. They are very powerful, and will have a tremendous impact on our institutions throughout their lives. This is only the beginning.

So, in all this, you're saying they are setting up their own government, to make demands on our current government. And they will take action if their goals aren't met.

That didn't work out to well for the Confederacy, and I suspect it won't work out for OWS either.

 

[Rozman]

First of all, It's getting a bit cold at night here in Florida. And if we are in the 60's and 50's during sleeping hours, How cold is it up there in the Tri-State area?

And being realistic: These kids can only survive in a cold & rainy environment for so long,then they will get a nasty cold/bug/bronchitis etc. Then they will have to go home to mommy who may have to spend "Her Money" for Cold Medicine, and possibly a doctors appt.

Anyhow, so How's the weather up there and any indication that the Protesters are gradually leaving Fettuccine Park? {hey, give it another two weeks when winter cold kicks in}

Mark my words. When it starts to get cold, someone will bring in torpedo heaters (made by the evil 1% corporations Dayton & All-Pro) to keep the protesters (and their fleas) warm and toasty in Panchetta Park at night.

Oil Fired Torpedo Heater, 38 K BtuH, 120 V - Portable Commercial Oil Heaters - Heating Equipment - 1VNX5 : Grainger Industrial Supply

All-Pro Portable Heaters: Forced Air, Convection, Salamander, Torpedo, & Tank Top Heaters

Yes, and they will be provided by the PEOPLE!

Gheddit?!?!?

You see, it is the PEOPLE that is behind them.

Which side are you on palooka?

I'm on the side of ....

Those wondering why black people aren't taking part in this protest thing.
I really don't see any of their kind there in a meaning full way.
Do they not feel this is a worthwhile effort?...
Or maybe they feel like jobs and such are a whitey thing?

 

[Dragon]

So, in all this, you're saying they are setting up their own government, to make demands on our current government. And they will take action if their goals aren't met.

That didn't work out to well for the Confederacy, and I suspect it won't work out for OWS either.

The Confederacy represented a minority of the nation. Occupy represents a majority, and a growing majority at that. At some point, if they choose to do so, they will be able to overthrow the U.S. government just as the people of Russia overthrew the Soviet Union. It could not be done right now, but in several years, assuming no significant reform takes place, it very well could.

What's important to understand here is that the electoral process has become so corrupted by campaign cash that elections no longer reflect the will of the voters. The options that the voters actually want are simply not offered; a false choice is presented between two parties, both bought and paid for by the corporate interests, and differing only in fairly insignificant ways. That's what needs to change, and will no doubt be the first demand that is made. As long as we have such a corrupt electoral process, the possibility of revolution will exist. The only way to forestall it is to get the money out of politics so that the people call the shots as they are theoretically supposed to. If that's done, then reform will take place through the electoral process as is supposed to happen, and the desire for revolution will evaporate.

Will that demand be met? Can it be met? The future of the nation depends on the answers to those questions.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

Just give me a ballpark guess of how many members does OWS have right now nationwide?

 

[Dragon]

Just give me a ballpark guess of how many members does OWS have right now nationwide?

All I can tell you with any confidence is that roughly 59% of the people support the movement according to opinion polls. 62%, according to Gallup, want less corporate influence on the government. 70% believe that income gaps are too large. Those are the two main issues the movement is talking about. These are clear majority positions and they are to the left of the Democrats, let alone the Republicans.

As for "membership," it all depends on how you define that. If you mean, willing to come out and take part in demonstrations, that's always a small minority of supporters, so I would put it at no more than three or four million tops, not all of whom could be gathered together at one time and place. I believe the total number of demonstrators in all locations over the month of the overt movement has probably not topped a million so far. If you mean, willing to do things like contribute a little money or something equivalent, it's a lot more than that, probably between 25 and 50 million. For the potential participation down the road, see the polls above.

 

[editec]

Not that cold yet.

Any day now, we can expect a cold snap.

Then I expect that the OWS movement will decamp.

 

[Teals_Of_Wonder]

As soon as a couple of the sleep-overs get the flu, it will spread,they will start leaving,, and by December 10 it will be down to about 15 eskimo's and several protesting reindeer.

 

[Teals_Of_Wonder]

it's 58/57 degrees now,,,,,for me,,60 is freezing !! I am already blowing my nose. And if it's 58 here at 1:30am,,,,,I am assuming it's 37 in New York? I wonder if the protesters are burning logs in their TeePees.

They are probably using this product to keep warm. (Made by another evil 1% corp)

They don't mind the evil corporations that produce things they want or need, do they? Like the $5,500 computer that idiot had stolen from her.

well I was just watching the weather channel,,,,ITS FREEZING IN NEW YORK !!! well not 32 degree freezing, but I think the average day temp was around 53 degrees? Yikes,,time to go to CVS, use their toilet, and buy some Flintsone's cold medicine.

 

[Teals_Of_Wonder]

Do these protesters really look like the type of people who are ready to endure -20 degree wind chills, and 2 feet of snow?

They'd have to be dressed more warmly, and no doubt will be. Otherwise, yes. Note that many of them are engaged in prayer and meditation, indicating a spiritual focus. People like that will, and often do, endure incredible hardships in service to what they believe is right. And as I pointed out, many of them already have.

The protest will still be there through the winter, unless it is cleared out by the Gesta -- er, I mean the police. And if that happens, the furor that will erupt nationwide is something you really don't want to think about.

This movement is on for the long haul. If you think it's going to blow away in a winter wind, you're dreaming.

If you asked a OSW protester what a La Nina Winter is, and that we are in for one, they would think it has something to with Three ships headed for Plymouth Rock. I dont think any of them have any idea of the 2011/2012 forecast......but I am pretty sure al gore will be hiding in Florida/LA right thru May.

 

[Teals_Of_Wonder]

Don't the wealthiest 1% of New Yorkers head for Florida from November thru April? Looks like the Babies will be protesting to no one (well just the squirrells) in about two weeks. But there's plenty of trees to chop down for firewood.