Public Unions.. Public Enemy # 1 ?

[Joe Steel]

BS.......if anything, unions ensure that the stinky educators get to continue teaching. You have to commit a homicide to get fired once you have tenure. Also........unions ensure that the bar stays uber low in terms of quality.
All that aside........the issue is the pensions. It just cant continue........they're absurd!!

That's utter nonsense.

Unions protect the quality of service. A union worker receiving a fair wage and protected from arbitrary dismissal is the best guarantee of good service.

 

[chanel]

not sure about that, because same thing's happening here in Virginia, teachers get 80% of their salary and can retire at 55, and their base pay has gone up faster than inflation

taxpayers are being completely scammed

Unions are necessary because if the public was to decide what to pay their cops and teachers, it would probably be slightly more than minimum wage. Once pay and benefits are slashed, only the slackers will apply. Be careful what you wish for.

QUOTE]






BS.......if anything, unions ensure that the stinky educators get to continue teaching. You have to commit a homicide to get fired once you have tenure. Also........unions ensure that the bar stays uber low in terms of quality.
All that aside........the issue is the pensions. It just cant continue........they're absurd!!

Bullshit. While I can agree that tenure laws should be tweaked, unions are not protecting "stinky educators". "Stinky educators" pass every student and don't enforce the rules. No one ever complains to the principal about them. "Stinky educators" walk on by while a kid is getting the crap being out of him. No one threatens to sue them. Tenure protects the teachers that are doing their jobs - not the "stinky ones".

But yes the issue is pensions, and this is a good start.

The various state pension plans are underfunded by at least $30 billion after years of skipped or partial payments.

The bills are described by legislators as an attempt to return the pension and benefits system to its original goal of ensuring the retirements of rank-and-file public employees and constitutionally require government to meet its annual pension obligations.

N.J. pension reform bills approved by Senate committee | State | NewJerseyNewsroom.com -- Your State. Your News.

 

[Big Black Dog]

I have only belonged to one union in my entire life. I am retired now, so this story is not something that is current but nevertheless true. I was once hired as an armed guard at a nuclear power plant. I had worked on that job for about three years and was a member of the union associated with that particular job. I paid dues every payday and participated in all the other specific union activities. The management came to me one particular day and told me that I would be laid off in two weeks. I reported this to the union and they did absolutely nothing to fight to keep my job so I was indeed laid off. I was ushered out the door with two weeks severence pay and best wishes for a great life. An odd thing happened. After I had been laid off for two weeks, I got a phone call from the very same place that had laid me off and they wanted to hire me back as a supervisor on the guard force! I accepted and went back to work as a sergeant on the guard force - a position that was not a union position. I worked in this position for nearly 10 years before I retired. The point I am trying to make is this. My experience with the union is that they did absolutely nothing for me except to collect monthly dues. Every grievence I ever heard them talk about and file officially on was defeated by the company administration and the union was basically worthless. So, given this union history, I would say that unions do nothing constructive - at least they never did for me.

 

[chanel]

I have a lot of issues with NJEA as well. My union dues are close to $1000 a year. However, the ONLY expectation that I have is that they will protect our health benefits and pension, and provide me with a lawyer in the event of a bogus lawsuit. Once that goes, so do I.

 

[Conspiracist]

NJ's pension problems are the result of years of "stealing from the cookie jar"

not sure about that, because same thing's happening here in Virginia, teachers get 80% of their salary and can retire at 55, and their base pay has gone up faster than inflation

taxpayers are being completely scammed

"Today's decision-makers and taxpayers are left with the legacy of that approach: high annual costs that come with significant unfunded liabilities, lower bond ratings, less money available for services, higher taxes and the specter of worsening problems in the future," the study said.

Pew held out the difference between New Jersey and New York - which has a well-funded pension, despite its current budget problems - as an example of "how poor management affects the bottom line," said Kil Huh, director of research for the Pew Center.

In 2000, both states' systems were fully funded. In the years after that, New York continued to make its full annual contributions while New Jersey did not, Huh said.

So by 2008, New Jersey's fund had fallen so far behind that its annual required contribution was $1 billion more than New York's - even though New York's long-term obligations were $15 billion more.

Study: Jersey pension system in dire straits - NJ.com

80% of their salary eh? Maybe I should move there.

Public employees are an easy target right now that people are losing their jobs. Ten years ago, no one cared.
I left a $35K a year private sector job in N. Jersey to work for county govt. at $12K in 1986. Family and friends thought I was nuts, but starting a family and having good benefits was my priority at the time. We all make choices. And to say that most public employees make more than the private sector equivalent is untrue.

Unions are necessary because if the public was to decide what to pay their cops and teachers, it would probably be slightly more than minimum wage. Once pay and benefits are slashed, only the slackers will apply. Be careful what you wish for.

I believe Christie is approaching this issue the sensible way. But he is not labeling the unions "public enemy #1". That kind of talk causes derision and anger. Not exactly the best way to solve a problem.

I respectfully disagree with the bold statement above. The fact that so many have lost their jobs and taken pay cuts to continue working only adds salt to the wound that so many city and county workers get such comfy retirement guarantees. I do not refer to teachers as much as I do the people that work at say... birth and death records departments, social security offices, motor vehicles departments etc.. These should all be privatized.

Although, teachers don't have an easy job, they cry a lot more than they should. Teachers spend that time in college knowing what they are going to doing and do so with a purpose.... In general it is not because they want to teach so bad but because of the summers off andevery single holiday known to USA and a guaranteed retirement with benis.

 

[Conspiracist]

I have only belonged to one union in my entire life. I am retired now, so this story is not something that is current but nevertheless true. I was once hired as an armed guard at a nuclear power plant. I had worked on that job for about three years and was a member of the union associated with that particular job. I paid dues every payday and participated in all the other specific union activities. The management came to me one particular day and told me that I would be laid off in two weeks. I reported this to the union and they did absolutely nothing to fight to keep my job so I was indeed laid off. I was ushered out the door with two weeks severence pay and best wishes for a great life. An odd thing happened. After I had been laid off for two weeks, I got a phone call from the very same place that had laid me off and they wanted to hire me back as a supervisor on the guard force! I accepted and went back to work as a sergeant on the guard force - a position that was not a union position. I worked in this position for nearly 10 years before I retired. The point I am trying to make is this. My experience with the union is that they did absolutely nothing for me except to collect monthly dues. Every grievence I ever heard them talk about and file officially on was defeated by the company administration and the union was basically worthless. So, given this union history, I would say that unions do nothing constructive - at least they never did for me.

That company had plans for you and the union knew about it. They did the right thing.

 

[chanel]

True. But cutting those bennies, might just exacerbate the problem. My son just announced that he may want to change his major to teaching. His reason: He wants to write and feels he will have a lot of "free time" to do it. I told him that's NOT the reason to go into teaching. But for a kid in college - the "bennies" don't really matter. Especially if mom and dad can keep him on their insurance til he's 30!

Unintended consequences...

 

[Conspiracist]

True. But cutting those bennies, might just exacerbate the problem. My son just announced that he may want to change his major to teaching. His reason: He wants to write and feels he will have a lot of "free time" to do it. I told him that's NOT the reason to go into teaching. But for a kid in college - the "bennies" don't really matter. Especially if mom and dad can keep him on their insurance til he's 30!

Unintended consequences...

my son wants to teach history because he loves history and figures he will always be learning about it as a teacher..... Summers off is a big deal too!

 

[Claudette]

They are bad news for sure. Corrupt to the core.

Here's a good article on some problems in California with rage inducing examples to boot, lol.

Plundering California by Steven Greenhut, City Journal 23 November 2009

Good article Ragnar, interesting and eye opening read, thanks for sharing.

Your right. Very interesting reading. No wonder Cali is broke.

I wonder how anyone can bring this down to being affordable in Cali and other places in America???

 

[sole survivor]

I dont know whats going on in different states, municipalities counties and the schools systems but I work for the Federal government and since 1986 there is no such "golden parachute" for us. And it is absurd to suggest that Federal employees (especially professionals) are making as much or more than an equivelant postition in the private sector. As a Summa Cum laude graduate in Accounting my wife turned down alot better money in the private sector for the security and work life balance of the FED. As a payroll clerk I think my compensation is fair and equal to what a person would make in private. As a professional she is not represented by a union. As wage labor I am represented by a union but I pay no dues and there is no real union presense in the workplace. I was a card carrying Teamster for 15 years and this isnt even close to the corrupt shit going on there. From a philisophical POV I think unions are a great idea. Labor is the most expensive factor of production in any business and I see no problem with workers coming together to apply leverage in negotiations. In practice its a corrupt lobby thats turned its back on members. I support the union im in

As far as retirement I would love to be getting a pension of 80% of my base pay but that just isnt the case. As a federal employee I pay into SS and a Thrift savings plan just like alot of folk in the private sector. The federal government also provides a pension that is almost nominal in value. Im thinking between all 3 plans my retirement might be half of what my base pay will be by the time I retire. I dont think thats alot to ask for a lifetime of service at wages below what a private sector employee earns.

 

[sole survivor]

uh

 

[sole survivor]

huh

 

[sole survivor]

my 15th post now allows me to do this

FERS Computation

 

[skookerasbil]

BS.......if anything, unions ensure that the stinky educators get to continue teaching. You have to commit a homicide to get fired once you have tenure. Also........unions ensure that the bar stays uber low in terms of quality.
All that aside........the issue is the pensions. It just cant continue........they're absurd!!

That's utter nonsense.

Unions protect the quality of service. A union worker receiving a fair wage and protected from arbitrary dismissal is the best guarantee of good service.

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!!!!

ok.......I see lots and lots of naive displayed on this forum on a regular basis, but I gotta admit, this one above gets the award for US MessageBoard "DUMBEST POST OF THE YEAR" award!!!!

 

[mudwhistle]

No.
Is it any surprise the industries (including Government) that use predominantly or a large number of union employees are the one's in the most trouble.

Just look at the auto industry to see the damage that unions can cause to businesses.

Wonder how much money went to unions from the Stimulus.

 

[skookerasbil]

the presence of unions assures that crap workers get to stay around and be crap.................

spend a day in a group home with union workers and then spend a day in a group home with no union workers. Its a fcukking joke..........union workers make sure the bar is set beyond low. This is not even a debatable subject.................


Union - sh!t quality 100% of the time relative to non-union.

 

[Toro]

During Republican Governor Chris Christie's inauguration speech in New Jersey, he dropped some interesting news in regards to Public Unions. The question I'm considering is whether or not the American people can afford such liberal benefits to State and Federal employees, as I'm guessing these kind of benefit packages are country wide?

Also.. now with Obama and the Democratic Party so bent on ballooning government control over the people and expanding the size of government, you have to wonder, how can the people pay for it?....

---------------------
One state retiree, 49 years old, paid, over the course of his entire career, a total of $124,000 towards his retirement pension and health benefits. What will we pay him? $3.3 million in pension payments over his life and nearly $500,000 for health care benefits -- a total of $3.8m on a $120,000 investment. Is that fair?

A retired teacher paid $62,000 towards her pension and nothing, yes nothing, for full family medical, dental and vision coverage over her entire career. What will we pay her? $1.4 million in pension benefits and another $215,000 in health care benefit premiums over her lifetime. Is it “fair” for all of us and our children to have to pay for this excess?

Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis: Governor Christie Declares "New Jersey on Edge of Bankruptcy"

Public unions have displaced al-Qaeda?

The answer in the OP is "no." All pensions have to be converted to defined contribution plans, otherwise, states will start declaring bankruptcy in 20-30 years.

 

[Lumpy 1]

I was a member of the Machinists Union early in my life. It was almost like a dream come true. I received great benefits and at least twice as much in wages than I would have made otherwise. I had a quota of work that I had to accomplish which took anywhere from 4 to 6 hours. After my quota, all I had to do was sit around in my work area, drink coffee, BS, really do nothing.

Everything was fine until they closed the company to move overseas.

 

[chanel]

But public employees are different lumpy1. We can "outsouce" our students and criminals. But you may be on to something...lol

 

[SwingVoter]

Unions protect the quality of service.

You wish. Because of the union, NYC school teachers can't be fired. So taxpayers have to pay to have inept teachers go to rubber rooms all day where they do nothing, and still get full salary.

Complete joke.