Psychopath Zelensky considering accepting Putin's 4 demands to end Ukraine war.

[Rogue AI]

I don't think it matters much what Zelensky wants anymore. That fool burned every possible diplomatic bridge with is constant begging, threats, and childish theatrics. His people should hang from a lightpost and vie for a real peace process.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Well, Zelensky’s position has always been difficult. He has actually rather cleverly managed to keep his options open. He has pointed out he no longer cares about formal NATO membership, would accept ostensible “neutrality,” etc.

He aspires to play an independent role, even to be the tail wagging the U.S. dog. So he continues to pressure the West to do more, knowing it will only go so far. Zelensky is no fool. He still seeks an actual military victory, wants and will get heavy weapons shipments, calls for “closed skies,” etc. Zelensky and his team know for now he is completely dependent on Western military and economic aid, and will want a hundred billion at least in $ seized from Russia and Russian oligarchs by Western governments in reparations.

Of course there are severe limits to Zelensky’s political independence. Nevertheless, I think it is clear he has played his cards well and proven personally courageous (whatever his other weaknesses) at least since the invasion began. He was not nearly so popular before Putin overplayed his hand.

We shall have to see if Zelensky is wise and nimble enough to work out a peace agreement — or at least a real ceasefire — with Putin, and remain both “Hero of Ukraine” and of the West. This will depend largely on whether Ukrainian troops succeed in reclaiming much of the recently occupied East and Southern coast, and yet give some sort of temporary diplomatic face-saving concession over Crimea to Putin.

Of course nobody knows whether Putin himself will decide to act more reasonably in his now much weakened and even humiliated circumstances, or choose to keep the war going a long time or perhaps even escalate.

I am not at all confidant this will work out well.

 

[Oddball]

Well, Zelensky’s position has always been difficult. He has actually rather cleverly managed to keep his options open. He has pointed out he no longer cares about formal NATO membership, would accept ostensible “neutrality,” etc.

That was pretty much all Putin wanted.....Therefore, the war has been an unnecessary and immense waste of life and resources.

Zelensky deserves no better end than Mussolini.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Oddball, it is clear Putin wanted much more, thought he could overthrow Zelensky and hoped even to set up a neutered Ukraine willing to accept Russian guidance. Putin also is not so naive that he cares only about Ukraine’s “formal” status — it is clear Ukraine can be a military power and “Spartan state” threatening Russian Crimea even without being formally in NATO. Putin’s mindset (shared by most Russians) unfortunately sees Ukraine as a fundamental part of the Russian world, which it was during Czarist and Soviet times, so Putin’s defeat will go down very, very hard.

 

[Oddball]

Oddball, it is clear Putin wanted much more, thought he could overthrow Zelensky and hoped even to set up a neutered Ukraine willing to accept Russian guidance. Putin also is not so naive that he cares only about Ukraine’s “formal” status — it is clear Ukraine can be a military power and “Spartan state” threatening Russian Crimea even without being formally in NATO. Putin’s mindset (shared by most Russians) unfortunately sees Ukraine as a fundamental part of the Russian world, which it was during Czarist and Soviet times, so Putin’s defeat will go down very, very hard.

How is any of that that speculation "clear"?

 

[José]

After a long period of hibernation the bear finally woke up and showed the West it means business.

Human societies and their history are way too complex for us to be able to make any acurate prediction but I hope we will see, 5, 10, 20 years from now, the end of the grotesque harrassment of Russia by the West and an independent, neutral Ukraine.

 

[Toro]

Oops! Sorry @mods! Less offensive version.

 

[JoeBlow]

The egotistical Zelensky should have done this when Russian troops first crossed the border. Instead of giving his citizens the false hope of a victory. Resulting in death and destruction throughout Ukraine.
Putin's 4 reasonable demands to stop the war.
#1 All Ukrainians to lay down their weapons and stop fighting.
#2 Signed pledge that Ukraine will never become a member of NATO
#3 Recognize that Crimea is now a part of Russia
#4 Recognize the two separatist regions Donbas and Luhansk as independent state.

Where Zelensky Is Open to 'Compromise' On Russia's 4 Demands to End War

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said he's open to negotiating, but he has to consider the lives of the people who elected him.

www.newsweek.com

So in other words, back to the start. I bet that's called a Muslim victory, where you get your ass kicked, declare victory, and go back to your camels.

 

[badger2]

Well, Zelensky’s position has always been difficult. He has actually rather cleverly managed to keep his options open. He has pointed out he no longer cares about formal NATO membership, would accept ostensible “neutrality,” etc.

He aspires to play an independent role, even to be the tail wagging the U.S. dog. So he continues to pressure the West to do more, knowing it will only go so far. Zelensky is no fool. He still seeks an actual military victory, wants and will get heavy weapons shipments, calls for “closed skies,” etc. Zelensky and his team know for now he is completely dependent on Western military and economic aid, and will want a hundred billion at least in $ seized from Russia and Russian oligarchs by Western governments in reparations.

Of course there are severe limits to Zelensky’s political independence. Nevertheless, I think it is clear he has played his cards well and proven personally courageous (whatever his other weaknesses) at least since the invasion began. He was not nearly so popular before Putin overplayed his hand.

We shall have to see if Zelensky is wise and nimble enough to work out a peace agreement — or at least a real ceasefire — with Putin, and remain both “Hero of Ukraine” and of the West. This will depend largely on whether Ukrainian troops succeed in reclaiming much of the recently occupied East and Southern coast, and yet give some sort of temporary diplomatic face-saving concession over Crimea to Putin.

Of course nobody knows whether Putin himself will decide to act more reasonably in his now much weakened and even humiliated circumstances, or choose to keep the war going a long time or perhaps even escalate.

I am not at all confidant this will work out well.

Zelenskiy plays well due to CIA-MI6 assistance, though the credibility is being chipped away by Russia's naming of the "Butcher of Bucha," Maxim "Tesak" Martsinkevich and his associate, neo-nazi and Azov battalion member, Sergei "Malyuta" Korotkikh.

Malutya Beheads Dagestani in front of the nazi flag:
Malyuta is Charged with Murder

Malyuta Is Charged with Murder / SOVA

The neo-Nazi Sergey (Malyuta) Korotkikh is charged with murder.

www.sova-center.ru

'....President Petro Poroshenko handed him a Ukrainian passport.'

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

After a long period of hibernation the bear finally woke up and showed the West it means business.

Russia cannot “wake up” when it is blinded by censorship and enthralled by the cult of Putinism, when Russians are simultaneously lulled to sleep and urged on by its Orthodox Church to defend “Holy Russia” — by invading and even wiping out independent Ukraine.

There is much brutality suffered and cynicism internalized by ordinary Russians in everyday life, especially outside of Moscow. This is often forgotten … until the “Potemkin Village” nature of even Russia’s state edifice and armed forces is exposed at times like this.

Russians themselves need to “wake up.” Not just “the Russian Bear.”

 

[badger2]

Maybe so, though Korotkikh mouthed off about the capitol riots on the 7th:

"We Know What To Do"

'We Know What To Do': Far-Right Figures Across Eastern Europe Applaud U.S. Capitol Violence

As a violent mob briefly took over parts of the U.S. Capitol building in a bid to overturn a democratic presidential election, some far-right, nationalist, and racist figures across Eastern Europe and the Balkans saw a common cause with the Confederate flag-waving rioters.

www.rferl.org

 

[José]

This is a message I posted yesterday but I think it addresses Tom's arguments perfectly:

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Originally posted by Tom Paine
Russia cannot “wake up” when it is blinded by censorship and enthralled by the cult of Putinism

The right of Russia to exist without being surrounded by american military bases is not a "putinist" cause, it's a russian national cause supported by the entire political spectrum, from the far left to the late Vladimir Zhirinovski.

Boris Yeltsin passionately supported it and Gorbachev before him.

For 3 decades Russia asked, begged, implored the West to stop just to find her western borders almost totally surrounded with Kiev quickly becoming a de facto (not de jure) NATO member.

Breaking stuff in Ukraine was a desperate measure.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Maybe so, though Korotkikh mouthed off about the capitol riots on the 7th:

"We Know What To Do"

'We Know What To Do': Far-Right Figures Across Eastern Europe Applaud U.S. Capitol Violence

As a violent mob briefly took over parts of the U.S. Capitol building in a bid to overturn a democratic presidential election, some far-right, nationalist, and racist figures across Eastern Europe and the Balkans saw a common cause with the Confederate flag-waving rioters.

www.rferl.org

Yes, thanks for providing this link. It is, in my own opinion, a very balanced article from January 2021, surprisingly carried on the U.S. government-financed Radio Free Europe website, about different ultra-nationalists and even fascist elements in Europe, including the Azov Brigade Banderites in Ukraine. You certainly won’t find such coverage these days on RFE!

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

This is a message I posted yesterday but I think it addresses Tom's arguments perfectly:

________________________________________________________________________________________________________



The right of Russia to exist without being surrounded by american military bases is not a "putinist" cause, it's a russian national cause supported by the entire political spectrum, from the far left to the late Vladimir Zhirinovski.

Boris Yeltsin passionately supported it and Gorbachev before him.

For 3 decades Russia asked, begged, implored the West to stop just to find her western borders almost totally surrounded with Kiev quickly becoming a de facto (not de jure) NATO member.

Breaking stuff in Ukraine was a desperate measure.

I agree. I opposed NATO expansion for decades. I also opposed the “Maidan Revolution” and defended the right of Crimeans to self determination and to vote to return to Russia.

Putin’s measure was indeed a desperate gamble, but the “cult of the authoritarian strongman” and of “Great Russian” imperialism / nationalism has been an historic part of Russian political culture for ages. It has its roots in the huge sprawling character of the Russian state, historic paranoia about invasions and indefensible frontiers, and a cultivated dismissal of the importance of democratic rights along with profound support for the role of the Russian state / religion / “soul,” etc. Establishing a progressive democratic culture in Russia will be difficult. Ultimately it must be the work of Russians themselves.

Without Putin, many fear (or hope) that the Russian Federation itself will self-destruct. Frankly, at this point it is not clear to me whether Putin’s humiliation and possible fall from power would lead ultimately to an improvement in Russia or not. As I said I am rather pessimistic about all this.

 

[JohnDB]

I am finding that the years of state controlled media in Russia to be frightening.

The sheep like the OP of this thread absolutely believe the lies that the propaganda has spewed out.

There's a reason why every country in the world has ostracized Russia...and it isn't jealousy. Meaning that literally the whole world is against Russia and their aggression in Ukraine. But the Russian people don't know or understand that....all because of the propaganda.

Propaganda is a very powerful tool....no matter how outrageous the lie. People are idiots and believe it anyway.

The dishonesty of Putin is going to cost the Russian people for decades and decades.
And many still think Putin is a Hero and Zalinski is a devil. The truth is exactly the opposite.

Powerful stuff this propaganda...I never thought that people were this stupid in the information age....I was so wrong. Unfortunately.