Protests: Fifty Shades as Glamorizing Domestic Violence

[emilynghiem]

BDSM has nothing to do with Christianity.

Hi Tipsycatlover
Delta was trying to attribute to Christianity
the abuse of the concept of wives submitting to husbands

I tried to explain that in Christianity both partners submit one to another.
I tried to make an analogy that people and government are supposed
to follow the law, and if govt DOESN'T follow law then NO we do NOT go along with crimes.

But he wants to stick to just abuses of religion and call it Christianity.
Which is like taking fraudulent pseudoscience and saying that's science.

Some people know they are making strawman arguments,
and some people don't realize they are doing it.

ChrisL HEY ^ this goes back to the idea that some people
THINK they are consenting and making decisions by free will.
but look at how Delta4 doesn't understand Christianity. So he rejects it as Negative and abusive and not a choice, and that affects his free will and consent. Because he is not fully informed.

Hmmmmm....we may have a real life example here of how people don't realize
their consent is being manipulated and they THINK they are agreeing to things by free choice.
but it is based on not knowing what is abuse and what is natural.

If you missed Delta4Embassy 's previous posts and threads,
he was saying that Christianity causes abuse
but pornography doesn't because that "depends on the people."
So why does it 'depend on the people' if Christianity is used in a healing way
or if religion is abused in a dangerous or damaging way? He understood this about
pornography and forgave anything bad with that. Why can't he forgive Christianity?

 

[emilynghiem]

"Oh, and Emily. I did find an article about how BDSM is a way to get away with abusing women."

Yes? It is. What was the point of your post?

That BDSM isn't about abusing women because it's consensual and fully in the submissives' power, not the man holding the implement. But in Christianity, men are in power and may discipline their wives without her consent thus is the actual abuse of women.

Hmmmmmm Delta4Embassy
So which group of people, the Christians or the BDSM, have lobbied to stop the forced abortions on women in China.
Who is more active and organized in trying to reach out and help others, even to create charitble efforts to provide medical care and housing to those suffering in poverty.

How many Christian groups have organized to buy people out of slavery and trafficking, gangs and cult abuse?
How many BDSM groups?

Are you serious to say that Christians promote more abuse than BDSM does?

I was told I'm not from this planet. What planet are YOU on?
Are we even in the same solar system or galaxy?

????

 

[emilynghiem]

BDSM has nothing to do with Christianity.

Apparently Tipsycatlover
Delta4Embassy agrees and takes it even further: asserting that Christianity is more abusive than BDSM
by manipulating women to submit to men, while BDSM is consensual with no such manipulation?

????

Is this what people mean by arguing black is white and white is black?

It sounds like Delta is taking ONLY the cases of BDSM where it is consensual
and omitting all other cases where this is manipulation;
and doing the opposite with Christianity by only singling out cases of abuse,
and omitting all other Christian practice that is fully voluntary and about healing from abuse.

How does BDSM do anything to heal people of cult, ritual, religious, and even satanic abuses?
Christian spiritual healing has liberated and healed people of very sick addictions and abuses.

Is Delta4Embassy going to leave all that out of the argument
and just focus on cases of abuses of Christianity while ignoring any such abuses of BDSM?

Bizarre, the most pronounced case of denial and projection of anyone
here HONEST enough to state their beliefs this openly. I applaud Delta for that honesty,
but by the same taken, ask Delta to finish the research and come to a complete conclusion that is fully honest!

I trust him to do that since he is honest enough to stick his foot in his mouth.
He will surely correct himself with that same conviction to speak the truth at all costs.
I encourage him and support him in finding and establishing the truth of the matter.

 

[Pogo]

BDSM has nothing to do with Christianity.

Sure did in the Inquisition.

I just got linked here. Have no idea what this thread's about. But I do know about torture.

So Emily -- I came for the male/female bit. Where does it start? Am I gonna have to review six hundred posts? If so maybe we wanna go back and continue to hijack the last one...

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

BDSM has nothing to do with Christianity.

Sure did in the Inquisition.

I just got linked here. Have no idea what this thread's about. But I do know about torture.

Synopsis. ChrisL believes that any couple that gets into any sort of BDSM is sick and twisted.

 

[Gracie]

Ana is an idiot. Sorry, but from the getgo, this dude is wacked. Contract? Painful sexual stimulation?

Nutbar. And so was she for going along with it to begin with.

And some girls are so insecure, they will take abuse even IF signing a contract. They are mentally challenged to agree to abuse just to be loved. And some, once in a relationship like this, can't get out. Or wind up dead.

 

[Michelle420]

"Oh, and Emily. I did find an article about how BDSM is a way to get away with abusing women."

Yes? It is. What was the point of your post?

That BDSM isn't about abusing women because it's consensual and fully in the submissives' power, not the man holding the implement. But in Christianity, men are in power and may discipline their wives without her consent thus is the actual abuse of women.

I disagree. It is about abusing women. Just because a person gives you consent to abuse them, that does not diminish YOUR abuse of said person. You are still a sick fucker for wanting to inflict pain upon another person, with or without consent.

I'm personally not into it. My objection though is it makes me laugh when people suddenly assume those roles contrasting so sharply with their former personality. It's just really bad acting to me and makes me giggle.

Also, being in a "submissive" role does mean the other dominating influence has to inflict pain.

Agreed!

 

[Pogo]

Well Emily after scanning the last few posts and the first few at the beginning I don't really see how this thread is a continuation of where we were at all.

I know very little about BDSM (but not nothing -- I remember her fondly) and nothing about this film, so ....

 

[ChrisL]

BDSM has nothing to do with Christianity.

Apparently Tipsycatlover
Delta4Embassy agrees and takes it even further: asserting that Christianity is more abusive than BDSM
by manipulating women to submit to men, while BDSM is consensual with no such manipulation?

????

Is this what people mean by arguing black is white and white is black?

It sounds like Delta is taking ONLY the cases of BDSM where it is consensual
and omitting all other cases where this is manipulation;
and doing the opposite with Christianity by only singling out cases of abuse,
and omitting all other Christian practice that is fully voluntary and about healing from abuse.

How does BDSM do anything to heal people of cult, ritual, religious, and even satanic abuses?
Christian spiritual healing has liberated and healed people of very sick addictions and abuses.

Is Delta4Embassy going to leave all that out of the argument
and just focus on cases of abuses of Christianity while ignoring any such abuses of BDSM?

Bizarre, the most pronounced case of denial and projection of anyone
here HONEST enough to state their beliefs this openly. I applaud Delta for that honesty,
but by the same taken, ask Delta to finish the research and come to a complete conclusion that is fully honest!

I trust him to do that since he is honest enough to stick his foot in his mouth.
He will surely correct himself with that same conviction to speak the truth at all costs.
I encourage him and support him in finding and establishing the truth of the matter.

I don't think that Christianity encourages abuse of women. However, most religions are patriarchal in nature.

I've heard stories though that Mary Magdalen (SP?) was much more prominent in the history of Christianity and much more influential than has been let on by the various churches. Of course, they cannot have an influential WOMAN!

 

[Pogo]

BDSM has nothing to do with Christianity.

Apparently Tipsycatlover
Delta4Embassy agrees and takes it even further: asserting that Christianity is more abusive than BDSM
by manipulating women to submit to men, while BDSM is consensual with no such manipulation?

????

Is this what people mean by arguing black is white and white is black?

It sounds like Delta is taking ONLY the cases of BDSM where it is consensual
and omitting all other cases where this is manipulation;
and doing the opposite with Christianity by only singling out cases of abuse,
and omitting all other Christian practice that is fully voluntary and about healing from abuse.

How does BDSM do anything to heal people of cult, ritual, religious, and even satanic abuses?
Christian spiritual healing has liberated and healed people of very sick addictions and abuses.

Is Delta4Embassy going to leave all that out of the argument
and just focus on cases of abuses of Christianity while ignoring any such abuses of BDSM?

Bizarre, the most pronounced case of denial and projection of anyone
here HONEST enough to state their beliefs this openly. I applaud Delta for that honesty,
but by the same taken, ask Delta to finish the research and come to a complete conclusion that is fully honest!

I trust him to do that since he is honest enough to stick his foot in his mouth.
He will surely correct himself with that same conviction to speak the truth at all costs.
I encourage him and support him in finding and establishing the truth of the matter.

I don't think that Christianity encourages abuse of women. However, most religions are patriarchal in nature.

I've heard stories though that Mary Magdalen (SP?) was much more prominent in the history of Christianity and much more influential than has been let on by the various churches. Of course, they cannot have an influential WOMAN!

She was Jesus' wife.

That all got rewritten. For exactly the reason you just stated.

 

[emilynghiem]

Well Emily after scanning the last few posts and the first few at the beginning I don't really see how this thread is a continuation of where we were at all.

I know very little about BDSM (but not nothing -- I remember her fondly) and nothing about this film, so ....

Strange Pogo -- it was only supposed to go to page 62 that had msg 619 relating to the male/female interpretations in the Bible.
Protests Fifty Shades as Glamorizing Domestic Violence Page 62 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

sorry this isn't working right, but thanks for picking up anyway. sorry for that. 619 not 618.

 

[Pogo]

Well Emily after scanning the last few posts and the first few at the beginning I don't really see how this thread is a continuation of where we were at all.

I know very little about BDSM (but not nothing -- I remember her fondly) and nothing about this film, so ....

Strange -- it was only supposed to go to page 62 that had msg 618 relating to the male/female interpretations in the Bible.

OK, I'll look that up.
You have to link by the post number permalink. Everybody's pages are set up differently.

 

[Pogo]

Here Delta4Embassy and ChrisL
for you to review and comment on freely, whatever thoughts or ideas come to mind:

Poetic short form first:
http www.houstonprogressive.org/genocide.html
http://www.isocracytx.net/copyrited/adam&eve.html

====================================
Long form analysis:

A. interpreting Adam and Eve
as God's authority starting off as an authoritarian relationship of parental over children
and moving toward equal responsibility of people becoming self governing
B. as representing matriarchal vs patriarchal systems
and moving back toward egalitarian between equal partners but playing different roles
C. as representing class differences between men
and management viewed as having greater value and authority
than women and field workers who are valued less and considered subordinate to the other

I have seen variations of these themes, and find whole movements
and people's personal convictions based on them, so I believe in including and addressing them all.

for equal justice to be established, all these issues of what causes inequality and oppression
need to be resolved. The same solution of forgiveness and correction in the
spirit of Restorative Justice applies to all, so that is where I see Christ Jesus represents that stage of fulfillment.

which do you wish to focus on
are all these equally important or which to address first?

then I think that will answer the other questions
you bring up about how to go about implementing justice
and how people can be under different levels or responsibility for self government

I will try to elaborate on A B and C above.
========================
A. this interpretation focuses on reconciling man's free will
with God's will through Christ Jesus. That instead of rebelling
against God's will, people learn by reason and experience, by free will
that we reap what we sow; where we act out of ill will and retribution,
we get retributive justice in return, and where we forgive wrongs
and seek correction and restitution in Christ Jesus ie Restorative Justice
then we are granted the same opportunity to make right out of wrongs.

B. this interpretation focuses on sins or karma passed down that
condition us in terms of gender bias and imbalance in society.
matriarchal societies used to pass knowledge of the laws from
mother to daughter, where spirituality was focused on women
and fertility as the source of life; but patriarchal laws and cultures
took over and defined property based on passing power from the
fathers to the sons, and marriage laws thus made women and children
part of the estate controlled by men. these cultural conditions are
passed down to future generations until balance is restored.
so the teachings of Christ Jesus as the one law or Lord under which all
humanity becomes the bride or wife, and where husbands and wives submit
one to another, are supposed to govern by consent not coercion.
and there is a marriage or harmony restored, where these are joined in peace.

C. This issue of class inequality is probably the one that concerns you the
most since most of your questions seem to be here. Because secular laws
are not addressed in the Bible but left to the governments, I would use
Constitutional laws to set up means of equal access to education, conflict resolution,
and training to become self-governing and let local peoples construct their own systems
using their cultures or religions to address their own tribes and traditions.

How this was explained to me, where class divisions came from,
the men were valued more as the meat gatherers whose hunts were prayed over
and the meat was more valuable, and thus the means of preserving it gave more
power and profits to the management class with resources to store distribute and sell meat.
While the women and workers in the fields who gathered crops and vegetables and fruits
were valued less as more plentiful. So the argument is social injustice came from this split.

Since we do not have equal education and empowerment of people at all ranks of society
that is why I support using the campus tiered system of organizing people by class,
and giving support and incentive to move up the scale to the highest level people want.
if they don't want to be fully independent, they should still be part of a community
that supports and does not exploit them for their labor or their educational level.

I believe we can see restorative Justice establish such schools by taking restitution
owed for slave trafficking and investing in building campus facilities with services
tied in with educational internships, residencies and job training on site.
so we can convert slave labor factories and sweatshops into
work study jobs on campuses that are managed similar to nonprofit or church schools.
people can choose their affiliations, so there is no forced labor but it is all voluntary
and done either for pay or study credits or restitution for crimes as agreed to.

Oh wait -- I did see this post.

I can't follow this post --- it's too "Emily". Meaning about 4% of the way in my eyes glaze over. It's like trying to read the Terms of Service on a new computer. Only ten times longer.

Cliff's Notes?

 

[emilynghiem]

A. interpreting Adam and Eve
as God's authority starting off as an authoritarian relationship of parental over children
and moving toward equal responsibility of people becoming self governing
B. as representing matriarchal vs patriarchal systems
and moving back toward egalitarian between equal partners but playing different roles
C. as representing class differences between men
and management viewed as having greater value and authority
than women and field workers who are valued less and considered subordinate to the other

Oh wait -- I did see this post.

I can't follow this post --- it's too "Emily". Meaning about 4% of the way in my eyes glaze over. It's like trying to read the Terms of Service on a new computer. Only ten times longer.

Cliff's Notes?

How about just the summary at the top of the three ways
A. first way is the spiritual interpretation that these divine laws and authority
already exist, and the language follows from that. The language does not create the laws.
Man's language may be flawed and biased, but it is an attempt to explain the existing laws.
and to show this relationship CHANGES from authoritarian to egalitarian as humanity matures.

B. second way is focusing on matriarchal vs. patriarchal roles in relationships.
both locally as male/female balance and equality in individual relations
and collectively how we look at church or state authority as mother and father figures.

C. last way is the most secular and linear in terms of cause and effect.
the idea of class division and disparity based on valuing the management
class and control over the working class, and how the male/female roles tied in with that.
the idea was that males were socially elevated and valued more for hunting meat,
over females and workers as crop gatherers where that stock and labor is valued less in society.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Well Emily after scanning the last few posts and the first few at the beginning I don't really see how this thread is a continuation of where we were at all.

I know very little about BDSM (but not nothing -- I remember her fondly) and nothing about this film, so ....

Strange Pogo -- it was only supposed to go to page 62 that had msg 619 relating to the male/female interpretations in the Bible.
Protests Fifty Shades as Glamorizing Domestic Violence Page 62 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

sorry this isn't working right, but thanks for picking up anyway. sorry for that. 619 not 618.

emilynghiem ,have you ever had a guy spank you?

 

[emilynghiem]

Well Emily after scanning the last few posts and the first few at the beginning I don't really see how this thread is a continuation of where we were at all.

I know very little about BDSM (but not nothing -- I remember her fondly) and nothing about this film, so ....

Strange Pogo -- it was only supposed to go to page 62 that had msg 619 relating to the male/female interpretations in the Bible.
Protests Fifty Shades as Glamorizing Domestic Violence Page 62 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

sorry this isn't working right, but thanks for picking up anyway. sorry for that. 619 not 618.

emilynghiem ,have you ever had a guy spank you?

is that an OFFER?

 

[Pogo]

Well Emily after scanning the last few posts and the first few at the beginning I don't really see how this thread is a continuation of where we were at all.

I know very little about BDSM (but not nothing -- I remember her fondly) and nothing about this film, so ....

Strange Pogo -- it was only supposed to go to page 62 that had msg 619 relating to the male/female interpretations in the Bible.
Protests Fifty Shades as Glamorizing Domestic Violence Page 62 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

sorry this isn't working right, but thanks for picking up anyway. sorry for that. 619 not 618.

emilynghiem ,have you ever had a guy spank you?

is that an OFFER?

Whoa -- that sure came back quick...

 

[Pogo]

A. interpreting Adam and Eve
as God's authority starting off as an authoritarian relationship of parental over children
and moving toward equal responsibility of people becoming self governing
B. as representing matriarchal vs patriarchal systems
and moving back toward egalitarian between equal partners but playing different roles
C. as representing class differences between men
and management viewed as having greater value and authority
than women and field workers who are valued less and considered subordinate to the other

Oh wait -- I did see this post.

I can't follow this post --- it's too "Emily". Meaning about 4% of the way in my eyes glaze over. It's like trying to read the Terms of Service on a new computer. Only ten times longer.

Cliff's Notes?

How about just the summary at the top of the three ways
A. first way is the spiritual interpretation that these divine laws and authority
already exist, and the language follows from that. The language does not create the laws.
Man's language may be flawed and biased, but it is an attempt to explain the existing laws.
and to show this relationship CHANGES from authoritarian to egalitarian as humanity matures.

B. second way is focusing on matriarchal vs. patriarchal roles in relationships.
both locally as male/female balance and equality in individual relations
and collectively how we look at church or state authority as mother and father figures.

C. last way is the most secular and linear in terms of cause and effect.
the idea of class division and disparity based on valuing the management
class and control over the working class, and how the male/female roles tied in with that.
the idea was that males were socially elevated and valued more for hunting meat,
over females and workers as crop gatherers where that stock and labor is valued less in society.

OK I know you're trying, but I kinda need sentences that go somewhere, with a subject, verb and object.

What are we saying about these A, B and C? That they exist? That they're three different views of something? That they're three different ways to do something? That they're progressions, each from the last?

I think before you start writing you need to compose a flight plan. Your posts tend to circle endlessly and never quite land.

 

[emilynghiem]

A. interpreting Adam and Eve
as God's authority starting off as an authoritarian relationship of parental over children
and moving toward equal responsibility of people becoming self governing
B. as representing matriarchal vs patriarchal systems
and moving back toward egalitarian between equal partners but playing different roles
C. as representing class differences between men
and management viewed as having greater value and authority
than women and field workers who are valued less and considered subordinate to the other

Oh wait -- I did see this post.

I can't follow this post --- it's too "Emily". Meaning about 4% of the way in my eyes glaze over. It's like trying to read the Terms of Service on a new computer. Only ten times longer.

Cliff's Notes?

How about just the summary at the top of the three ways
A. first way is the spiritual interpretation that these divine laws and authority
already exist, and the language follows from that. The language does not create the laws.
Man's language may be flawed and biased, but it is an attempt to explain the existing laws.
and to show this relationship CHANGES from authoritarian to egalitarian as humanity matures.

B. second way is focusing on matriarchal vs. patriarchal roles in relationships.
both locally as male/female balance and equality in individual relations
and collectively how we look at church or state authority as mother and father figures.

C. last way is the most secular and linear in terms of cause and effect.
the idea of class division and disparity based on valuing the management
class and control over the working class, and how the male/female roles tied in with that.
the idea was that males were socially elevated and valued more for hunting meat,
over females and workers as crop gatherers where that stock and labor is valued less in society.

OK I know you're trying, but I kinda need sentences that go somewhere, with a subject, verb and object.

What are we saying about these A, B and C? That they exist? That they're three different views of something? That they're three different ways to do something? That they're progressions, each from the last?

I think before you start writing you need to compose a flight plan. Your posts tend to circle endlessly and never quite land.

they are three different interpretations.

1. one is focusing on the RELATIONSHIP with God
moving from PARENTAL/AUTHORITARIAN to Equalitarian where people accept equal responsibility
for enforcing and upholding laws

2. one is focusing on the MALE/FEMALE dynamic in personal relations
and how this affects greater society when these dynamics or biases are projected

3. one is focusing on CLASS politics of the ownership/management
class dominating over the working class.
The reason this ties in with male/female roles or views in society
is the MALES were valued more and worshipped as the meat gatherers
while the FEMALES were valued less as gathering crops which weren't as valuable.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Well Emily after scanning the last few posts and the first few at the beginning I don't really see how this thread is a continuation of where we were at all.

I know very little about BDSM (but not nothing -- I remember her fondly) and nothing about this film, so ....

Strange Pogo -- it was only supposed to go to page 62 that had msg 619 relating to the male/female interpretations in the Bible.
Protests Fifty Shades as Glamorizing Domestic Violence Page 62 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

sorry this isn't working right, but thanks for picking up anyway. sorry for that. 619 not 618.

emilynghiem ,have you ever had a guy spank you?

is that an OFFER?

Whoa -- that sure came back quick...

When you're the man, you're the man