Poland and czech republic ban germany’s green energy

[daveman]

POLAND AND CZECH REPUBLIC BAN GERMANY’S GREEN ENERGY

In order to boost Germany’s ‘ecological wonder’ of its green energy transition, the Federal Republic has used power grids of neighboring countries – without asking permission. For this short-sighted policy, the German government is now being punished.

Germany considers itself the environmental conscience of the world: with its nuclear phase-out and the green energy transition, the federal government wanted to give the world a model to follow. However, blinded by its own halo Germany overlooked that others have to pay for this green image boost and are suffering as a result.

For example, Germany’s ‘eco-miracle’ simply used the power grids of neighboring countries not only without asking permission but also without paying for it. Now Poland and the Czech Republic have pulled the plug and are building a huge switch-off at their borders with Germany to block the uninvited import of green energy from Germany which is destabalising their grids and are thus risking blackouts.

--

Germany’s federal government made the nuclear phase-out decision without any consultation with their European patrens and irrespüective of any implications for partner countries. The green decision was rushed through without regard to transport capacity. For their short-sighted, self-centered actionistic energy policy the German government is now paying the price​

 

[Trakar]

POLAND AND CZECH REPUBLIC BAN GERMANY’S GREEN ENERGY

In order to boost Germany’s ‘ecological wonder’ of its green energy transition, the Federal Republic has used power grids of neighboring countries – without asking permission. For this short-sighted policy, the German government is now being punished...​

​

And yet, when you read the actual german tabloid ("Die Welt") that this story originally can from, it talks about the reason the Czech and Polish governments are complaining is because the cheaper Germany renewable energies mean that Czech and Polish power companies are preferentially buying the cheaper imported German renewable power over the more expensively produced domestic hydrocarbon and nuclear power. IOW, the tiff is more than what meets the eye: Cheaper green electricity from Germany pushes its neighbors out of the market – and the Central Europeans thus want to block it, by force if necessary.

Figures, first the US conservidiots want to copy the same types of austerity measures that pushed their Eastern European idols into a double dip recession, and now they want to emulate their ideological lockstep path in rejecting domestic, clean, cheaper and abundant renewable energy.

the Germans are pushing back. The Central Europeans are trying to justify their reliance on antiquated nuclear reactors, the German authorities say, as well as their plans to build more in the near future. Prague hopes to increase its nuclear generation capacity share to 55% of its national supply by 2040 (It is currently at 35%.) The Poles want their very first reactor and running by 2020. By blocking the German access to their grid, they prevent Germany companies from selling their electricity, which is cheaper than that of the Central Europeans, to Austria and other Eastern european nations that are clamoring for cheap German renewable electricity.

Rainer Baake, director of the think tank Agora Energiewende explains "Germany's increase in clean energy has led to Germany's wholesale electricity prices becoming cheaper and cheaper. Now it's less expensive to import electricity from Germany than to produce it in coal fired power plants in Eastern Europe – let alone to build new nuclear power plants."

According to many German energy experts, the naysayers couldn't envision how the new energy economy would work. Rainer Baake, who brokered the original plan to phase out nuclear, said the critics didn't understand that while a single source of renewable energy can't match the constant power of a coal or nuclear plant, a mix of renewable sources can achieve a similar result. For example, solar power produces a predictable range of energy during the day, while winds blow primarily at night. Getting the mix right isn't easy. But so far, Baake argued, Germany's experience suggests that it is possible.
(Germany Abandons Nuclear Power and Lives to Talk About It - Businessweek)

Personally, I think there is an important and strong role for nuclear power in the US energy system, but defending andpromoting that role doesn't require me to lie or distort the roles of other energy sources.

 

[Old Rocks]

POLAND AND CZECH REPUBLIC BAN GERMANY’S GREEN ENERGY

In order to boost Germany’s ‘ecological wonder’ of its green energy transition, the Federal Republic has used power grids of neighboring countries – without asking permission. For this short-sighted policy, the German government is now being punished.

Germany considers itself the environmental conscience of the world: with its nuclear phase-out and the green energy transition, the federal government wanted to give the world a model to follow. However, blinded by its own halo Germany overlooked that others have to pay for this green image boost and are suffering as a result.

For example, Germany’s ‘eco-miracle’ simply used the power grids of neighboring countries not only without asking permission but also without paying for it. Now Poland and the Czech Republic have pulled the plug and are building a huge switch-off at their borders with Germany to block the uninvited import of green energy from Germany which is destabalising their grids and are thus risking blackouts.

--

Germany’s federal government made the nuclear phase-out decision without any consultation with their European patrens and irrespüective of any implications for partner countries. The green decision was rushed through without regard to transport capacity. For their short-sighted, self-centered actionistic energy policy the German government is now paying the price​

So, now we see another 'Conservative' taking point shown for the lie it contains. Poor Germans, paying less for their energy than their neighbors,. How are they ever going to get over it.

 

[emptystep]

I side note. When I was stationed in Germany just outside a small town in Norddeutschland there was a wind turbine right side my barracks window. I always thought it was cool going around around in silence. It was like a giant silent alchemist turning the flow of wind into the flow of electrons. When ran the back roads for training I practically ran right underneath it. That was in 1989. Renewable energy is not new to Germany.

 

[daveman]

POLAND AND CZECH REPUBLIC BAN GERMANY’S GREEN ENERGY

In order to boost Germany’s ‘ecological wonder’ of its green energy transition, the Federal Republic has used power grids of neighboring countries – without asking permission. For this short-sighted policy, the German government is now being punished...​

​

And yet, when you read the actual german tabloid ("Die Welt") that this story originally can from, it talks about the reason the Czech and Polish governments are complaining is because the cheaper Germany renewable energies mean that Czech and Polish power companies are preferentially buying the cheaper imported German renewable power over the more expensively produced domestic hydrocarbon and nuclear power. IOW, the tiff is more than what meets the eye: Cheaper green electricity from Germany pushes its neighbors out of the market – and the Central Europeans thus want to block it, by force if necessary.

Figures, first the US conservidiots want to copy the same types of austerity measures that pushed their Eastern European idols into a double dip recession, and now they want to emulate their ideological lockstep path in rejecting domestic, clean, cheaper and abundant renewable energy.

the Germans are pushing back. The Central Europeans are trying to justify their reliance on antiquated nuclear reactors, the German authorities say, as well as their plans to build more in the near future. Prague hopes to increase its nuclear generation capacity share to 55% of its national supply by 2040 (It is currently at 35%.) The Poles want their very first reactor and running by 2020. By blocking the German access to their grid, they prevent Germany companies from selling their electricity, which is cheaper than that of the Central Europeans, to Austria and other Eastern european nations that are clamoring for cheap German renewable electricity.

Rainer Baake, director of the think tank Agora Energiewende explains "Germany's increase in clean energy has led to Germany's wholesale electricity prices becoming cheaper and cheaper. Now it's less expensive to import electricity from Germany than to produce it in coal fired power plants in Eastern Europe – let alone to build new nuclear power plants."

According to many German energy experts, the naysayers couldn't envision how the new energy economy would work. Rainer Baake, who brokered the original plan to phase out nuclear, said the critics didn't understand that while a single source of renewable energy can't match the constant power of a coal or nuclear plant, a mix of renewable sources can achieve a similar result. For example, solar power produces a predictable range of energy during the day, while winds blow primarily at night. Getting the mix right isn't easy. But so far, Baake argued, Germany's experience suggests that it is possible.
(Germany Abandons Nuclear Power and Lives to Talk About It - Businessweek)

Personally, I think there is an important and strong role for nuclear power in the US energy system, but defending andpromoting that role doesn't require me to lie or distort the roles of other energy sources.

POLAND AND CZECH REPUBLIC BAN GERMANY’S GREEN ENERGY

In order to boost Germany’s ‘ecological wonder’ of its green energy transition, the Federal Republic has used power grids of neighboring countries – without asking permission. For this short-sighted policy, the German government is now being punished.

Germany considers itself the environmental conscience of the world: with its nuclear phase-out and the green energy transition, the federal government wanted to give the world a model to follow. However, blinded by its own halo Germany overlooked that others have to pay for this green image boost and are suffering as a result.

For example, Germany’s ‘eco-miracle’ simply used the power grids of neighboring countries not only without asking permission but also without paying for it. Now Poland and the Czech Republic have pulled the plug and are building a huge switch-off at their borders with Germany to block the uninvited import of green energy from Germany which is destabalising their grids and are thus risking blackouts.

--

Germany’s federal government made the nuclear phase-out decision without any consultation with their European patrens and irrespüective of any implications for partner countries. The green decision was rushed through without regard to transport capacity. For their short-sighted, self-centered actionistic energy policy the German government is now paying the price​

So, now we see another 'Conservative' taking point shown for the lie it contains. Poor Germans, paying less for their energy than their neighbors,. How are they ever going to get over it.

So, you guys have no problem with enviro-nuts dictating to other people and stealing:

For example, Germany’s ‘eco-miracle’ simply used the power grids of neighboring countries not only without asking permission but also without paying for it.​

Not at all surprising, really.

 

[Trakar]

So, you guys have no problem with enviro-nuts dictating to other people and stealing:

For example, Germany’s ‘eco-miracle’ simply used the power grids of neighboring countries not only without asking permission but also without paying for it.
​

Not at all surprising, really.

Assertions require compelling support.

Please cite and reference any reliable and objective source detailing and illustrating "enviro-nuts" have anything to do with this issue, and outlining the specifics about anything being "stolen" from anyone.

 

[Old Rocks]

POLAND AND CZECH REPUBLIC BAN GERMANY’S GREEN ENERGY

In order to boost Germany’s ‘ecological wonder’ of its green energy transition, the Federal Republic has used power grids of neighboring countries – without asking permission. For this short-sighted policy, the German government is now being punished...​

​

And yet, when you read the actual german tabloid ("Die Welt") that this story originally can from, it talks about the reason the Czech and Polish governments are complaining is because the cheaper Germany renewable energies mean that Czech and Polish power companies are preferentially buying the cheaper imported German renewable power over the more expensively produced domestic hydrocarbon and nuclear power. IOW, the tiff is more than what meets the eye: Cheaper green electricity from Germany pushes its neighbors out of the market – and the Central Europeans thus want to block it, by force if necessary.

Figures, first the US conservidiots want to copy the same types of austerity measures that pushed their Eastern European idols into a double dip recession, and now they want to emulate their ideological lockstep path in rejecting domestic, clean, cheaper and abundant renewable energy.

the Germans are pushing back. The Central Europeans are trying to justify their reliance on antiquated nuclear reactors, the German authorities say, as well as their plans to build more in the near future. Prague hopes to increase its nuclear generation capacity share to 55% of its national supply by 2040 (It is currently at 35%.) The Poles want their very first reactor and running by 2020. By blocking the German access to their grid, they prevent Germany companies from selling their electricity, which is cheaper than that of the Central Europeans, to Austria and other Eastern european nations that are clamoring for cheap German renewable electricity.

Rainer Baake, director of the think tank Agora Energiewende explains "Germany's increase in clean energy has led to Germany's wholesale electricity prices becoming cheaper and cheaper. Now it's less expensive to import electricity from Germany than to produce it in coal fired power plants in Eastern Europe – let alone to build new nuclear power plants."

According to many German energy experts, the naysayers couldn't envision how the new energy economy would work. Rainer Baake, who brokered the original plan to phase out nuclear, said the critics didn't understand that while a single source of renewable energy can't match the constant power of a coal or nuclear plant, a mix of renewable sources can achieve a similar result. For example, solar power produces a predictable range of energy during the day, while winds blow primarily at night. Getting the mix right isn't easy. But so far, Baake argued, Germany's experience suggests that it is possible.
(Germany Abandons Nuclear Power and Lives to Talk About It - Businessweek)

Personally, I think there is an important and strong role for nuclear power in the US energy system, but defending andpromoting that role doesn't require me to lie or distort the roles of other energy sources.

POLAND AND CZECH REPUBLIC BAN GERMANY’S GREEN ENERGY

In order to boost Germany’s ‘ecological wonder’ of its green energy transition, the Federal Republic has used power grids of neighboring countries – without asking permission. For this short-sighted policy, the German government is now being punished.

Germany considers itself the environmental conscience of the world: with its nuclear phase-out and the green energy transition, the federal government wanted to give the world a model to follow. However, blinded by its own halo Germany overlooked that others have to pay for this green image boost and are suffering as a result.

For example, Germany’s ‘eco-miracle’ simply used the power grids of neighboring countries not only without asking permission but also without paying for it. Now Poland and the Czech Republic have pulled the plug and are building a huge switch-off at their borders with Germany to block the uninvited import of green energy from Germany which is destabalising their grids and are thus risking blackouts.

--

Germany’s federal government made the nuclear phase-out decision without any consultation with their European patrens and irrespüective of any implications for partner countries. The green decision was rushed through without regard to transport capacity. For their short-sighted, self-centered actionistic energy policy the German government is now paying the price​

So, now we see another 'Conservative' taking point shown for the lie it contains. Poor Germans, paying less for their energy than their neighbors,. How are they ever going to get over it.

So, you guys have no problem with enviro-nuts dictating to other people and stealing:

For example, Germany’s ‘eco-miracle’ simply used the power grids of neighboring countries not only without asking permission but also without paying for it.​

Not at all surprising, really.

Sheesh. So selling less costly electricity to a neighboring country is stealing. Only a 'Conservative' would come up with that.

 

[daveman]

So, you guys have no problem with enviro-nuts dictating to other people and stealing:

For example, Germany’s ‘eco-miracle’ simply used the power grids of neighboring countries not only without asking permission but also without paying for it.
​

Not at all surprising, really.

Assertions require compelling support.

Please cite and reference any reliable and objective source detailing and illustrating "enviro-nuts" have anything to do with this issue, and outlining the specifics about anything being "stolen" from anyone.

This from a 9/11 troofer?



Priceless.

 

[daveman]

[/INDENT]And yet, when you read the actual german tabloid ("Die Welt") that this story originally can from, it talks about the reason the Czech and Polish governments are complaining is because the cheaper Germany renewable energies mean that Czech and Polish power companies are preferentially buying the cheaper imported German renewable power over the more expensively produced domestic hydrocarbon and nuclear power. IOW, the tiff is more than what meets the eye: Cheaper green electricity from Germany pushes its neighbors out of the market – and the Central Europeans thus want to block it, by force if necessary.

Figures, first the US conservidiots want to copy the same types of austerity measures that pushed their Eastern European idols into a double dip recession, and now they want to emulate their ideological lockstep path in rejecting domestic, clean, cheaper and abundant renewable energy.

the Germans are pushing back. The Central Europeans are trying to justify their reliance on antiquated nuclear reactors, the German authorities say, as well as their plans to build more in the near future. Prague hopes to increase its nuclear generation capacity share to 55% of its national supply by 2040 (It is currently at 35%.) The Poles want their very first reactor and running by 2020. By blocking the German access to their grid, they prevent Germany companies from selling their electricity, which is cheaper than that of the Central Europeans, to Austria and other Eastern european nations that are clamoring for cheap German renewable electricity.

Rainer Baake, director of the think tank Agora Energiewende explains "Germany's increase in clean energy has led to Germany's wholesale electricity prices becoming cheaper and cheaper. Now it's less expensive to import electricity from Germany than to produce it in coal fired power plants in Eastern Europe – let alone to build new nuclear power plants."

According to many German energy experts, the naysayers couldn't envision how the new energy economy would work. Rainer Baake, who brokered the original plan to phase out nuclear, said the critics didn't understand that while a single source of renewable energy can't match the constant power of a coal or nuclear plant, a mix of renewable sources can achieve a similar result. For example, solar power produces a predictable range of energy during the day, while winds blow primarily at night. Getting the mix right isn't easy. But so far, Baake argued, Germany's experience suggests that it is possible.
(Germany Abandons Nuclear Power and Lives to Talk About It - Businessweek)

Personally, I think there is an important and strong role for nuclear power in the US energy system, but defending andpromoting that role doesn't require me to lie or distort the roles of other energy sources.

So, now we see another 'Conservative' taking point shown for the lie it contains. Poor Germans, paying less for their energy than their neighbors,. How are they ever going to get over it.

So, you guys have no problem with enviro-nuts dictating to other people and stealing:

For example, Germany’s ‘eco-miracle’ simply used the power grids of neighboring countries not only without asking permission but also without paying for it.​

Not at all surprising, really.

Sheesh. So selling less costly electricity to a neighboring country is stealing. Only a 'Conservative' would come up with that.

So you wouldn't mind if your neighbor used your car without asking permission first? After all, it's not stealing, is it?

 

[Trakar]

So you wouldn't mind if your neighbor used your car without asking permission first? After all, it's not stealing, is it?

The community I lived in during my years in Alaska did not have the crime of "auto theft" in its laws. It was a small community, there were only 20 miles of paved roads on the island, and everyone left their keys in their car in case someone became stranded and needed emergency transportation. It was not uncommon to find that your vehicle had been borrowed, custom dictated that fuel, money or food would be left in exchange for the temporary borrowing of your vehicle... not that this has anything to do with your absurd analogy, but it just goes to show that laws bend to custom in typical applications.

You seem to be arguing that other people should be able to dump their trash and sewage in your house windows so I'm not sure why you are concerned about someone borrowing someone else's car?

Ultimately, however, this is all ridiculous until you can demonstrate how and where germany was "stealing access" to another nation's grid lines. Something you have been repeatedly challenged to support, and something you have steadfastly neglected to provide compelling support for.

 

[daveman]

So you wouldn't mind if your neighbor used your car without asking permission first? After all, it's not stealing, is it?

The community I lived in during my years in Alaska did not have the crime of "auto theft" in its laws. It was a small community, there were only 20 miles of paved roads on the island, and everyone left their keys in their car in case someone became stranded and needed emergency transportation. It was not uncommon to find that your vehicle had been borrowed, custom dictated that fuel, money or food would be left in exchange for the temporary borrowing of your vehicle... not that this has anything to do with your absurd analogy, but it just goes to show that laws bend to custom in typical applications.

Yeah. Let's say in Germany -- is it okay if people use others' cars without first asking?

I'm betting "no".

You seem to be arguing that other people should be able to dump their trash and sewage in your house windows...

No, I'm not. You seem to be stupid.

...so I'm not sure why you are concerned about someone borrowing someone else's car?

Interesting strawman. It's ugly and dumb. Definitely yours.

Ultimately, however, this is all ridiculous until you can demonstrate how and where germany was "stealing access" to another nation's grid lines. Something you have been repeatedly challenged to support, and something you have steadfastly neglected to provide compelling support for.

Oh, gosh -- a troofer doesn't believe me. Wherever shall I go? Whatever shall I do?

Original source for the article:

Ökostrom : Polnische Quittung für deutsche Energiewende - Nachrichten Eilmeldung - DIE WELT

 

[Old Rocks]

Daveboy, you seem to be getting even more remarkably stupid. The utilities were purchasing the much cheaper electricity from Germany. The owners of the generating plants, coal and gas, were losing money. So, they get the political structure in those nations to outlaw the import of German produced electricity. Using that nonsensical "stealing the use of our grid" talking point.

So now the Poles and Czechs get to pay more for the electricity for the benefit of the owners of the generating plants. I can well understand how a "Conservative" would think that would be a good deal.

 

[bripat9643]

Assertions require compelling support.

You mean assertions like the theory anthropogenic global warming?

How ironic!

 

[bripat9643]

Daveboy, you seem to be getting even more remarkably stupid. The utilities were purchasing the much cheaper electricity from Germany. The owners of the generating plants, coal and gas, were losing money. So, they get the political structure in those nations to outlaw the import of German produced electricity. Using that nonsensical "stealing the use of our grid" talking point.

So now the Poles and Czechs get to pay more for the electricity for the benefit of the owners of the generating plants. I can well understand how a "Conservative" would think that would be a good deal.

The only reason they were getting it cheap from Germany is that when the wind is blowing Germany has lots of excess power that it can't use. Therefore, they sell it off at rates far below the cost of production. The cost of producing that power is not lower than coal and gas. It's several times higher.

 

[Trakar]

"Stupid?" really? Well, I'm not the one proposing that power and fossil fuel provider companies ought to be allowed to generate profits by dumping pollution into the public commons without paying for cleaning it up or paying for the damages it causes to society and individuals. That said, I don't consider such individuals to be "stupid," in general they are good people being fed bad information and misunderstandings.

Ultimately, however, this is all ridiculous until you can demonstrate how and where germany was "stealing access" to another nation's grid lines. Something you have been repeatedly challenged to support, and something you have steadfastly neglected to provide compelling support for.

Oh, gosh -- a troofer doesn't believe me. Wherever shall I go? Whatever shall I do?

Original source for the article:

Ökostrom : Polnische Quittung für deutsche Energiewende - Nachrichten Eilmeldung - DIE WELT

"Troofer?" what idiocy is rattling around in that sharply sloped forehead now?

And the article does nothing to support your assertions (or even their own). Is it really so offensive to ask a supposed "skeptic" to employ critical thinking skills and compelling evidentiary support and reference for their assertions?

 

[bobcollum]

Jeezus Dave, answer the guy's questions if they're so easily refuted.

 

[Old Rocks]

Daveboy, you seem to be getting even more remarkably stupid. The utilities were purchasing the much cheaper electricity from Germany. The owners of the generating plants, coal and gas, were losing money. So, they get the political structure in those nations to outlaw the import of German produced electricity. Using that nonsensical "stealing the use of our grid" talking point.

So now the Poles and Czechs get to pay more for the electricity for the benefit of the owners of the generating plants. I can well understand how a "Conservative" would think that would be a good deal.

The only reason they were getting it cheap from Germany is that when the wind is blowing Germany has lots of excess power that it can't use. Therefore, they sell it off at rates far below the cost of production. The cost of producing that power is not lower than coal and gas. It's several times higher.

And the evidence you have to back up that assertation is?

 

[bripat9643]

Daveboy, you seem to be getting even more remarkably stupid. The utilities were purchasing the much cheaper electricity from Germany. The owners of the generating plants, coal and gas, were losing money. So, they get the political structure in those nations to outlaw the import of German produced electricity. Using that nonsensical "stealing the use of our grid" talking point.

So now the Poles and Czechs get to pay more for the electricity for the benefit of the owners of the generating plants. I can well understand how a "Conservative" would think that would be a good deal.

The only reason they were getting it cheap from Germany is that when the wind is blowing Germany has lots of excess power that it can't use. Therefore, they sell it off at rates far below the cost of production. The cost of producing that power is not lower than coal and gas. It's several times higher.

And the evidence you have to back up that assertation is?

The evidence is that fact that every credible paper ever written on the subject shows that wind power and solar power cost several times more than coal or gas fired power plants.

 

[Trakar]

And the evidence you have to back up that assertation is?

NOt sure what he is looking at, it doesn't seem to be reflected in the public data:

​

"Electricity production from solar and wind in Germany in 2012" - http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/downloads-englisch/pdf-files-englisch/news/electricity-production-from-solar-and-wind-in-germany-in-2012.pdf

"Solar PV Reducing Price of Electricity in Germany"
Read more at Solar PV Reducing Price of Electricity in Germany - CleanTechnica

"Calculating the true cost of electricity" Calculating the true cost of electricity | Environment | DW.DE | 13.09.2012

 

[Old Rocks]

The only reason they were getting it cheap from Germany is that when the wind is blowing Germany has lots of excess power that it can't use. Therefore, they sell it off at rates far below the cost of production. The cost of producing that power is not lower than coal and gas. It's several times higher.

And the evidence you have to back up that assertation is?

The evidence is that fact that every credible paper ever written on the subject shows that wind power and solar power cost several times more than coal or gas fired power plants.

Yap, yap. You posted nothing at all to back up your assertation.