On the Right: Fights among Ourselves

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Doug, Oct 21, 2007.

  1. Doug
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    Doug Active Member

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    Someone on the thread about political diversity (or lack thereof) on the Left wanted examples of intra-Right conflicts. Assuming that Libertarians are counted as on the Right, here are links to debates between Conservatives and Libertarians.

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    The Intercollegiate Studies Institute has published a collection of essays on this subject:[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Virtue-Conservative-Libertarian-Debate/dp/1882926196] Freedom and Virtue: The Conservative-Libertarian Debate[/ame]. George W Carey (ed).

    An editorial review describes it as follows:
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    Conservatives and Libertarians: Uneasy Cousins by Robert Nisbet (Modern Age, Winter, 1980) explores what the two sides have in common, and where they differ, looking at the historic intellectual roots of both traditions.
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    Why there is a basis for an alliance between conservatism and libertarianism on issues of morality as well as on questions of economics, and why libertarianism is not, properly understood, a celebration of the flaunting of traditional morality, is argued clearly and forcefully in What Libertarianism Isn't by Professor Edward Feser. (21 December 2001) However, he later modified his views, becoming more pessimistic about the chances of such an alliance, in Hayek and Fusionism . (16 February 2007).)
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    In Conservatives and Libertarianism (Modern Age, Winter 1980) Tibor Machan defends libertarianism from a philosophical point of view.
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    Why We Are Conservatives by Donald Devine, of the American Conservative Union, 20 Jan 2000, lays out the foundations of conservatism which distinguish it from a mere love of liberty.
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    The classic libertarian indictment of conservatism is here:<a href="http://www.liberalvalues.org.nz/index.php?...;article_id=246" target="_blank">
    Why I am not a conservative</a> by FA Hayek, the final chapter of his book The Constitution of Liberty, 1960.
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    In Libertarians under my Skin Jonah Goldberg tells some of his libertarian critics to "Grow Up Already" ( National Review Online (2 March 2001).
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    In The violence of conservatism Jeffrey Tucker, at LewRockwell.com (21 August 2004) criticizes conservatives for their glorification of war, which he says belies their supposed opposition to the expansion of the state.
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    Kay Hymowitz has penned another critique of libertarianism in Opinion Journal: Freedom Fetishists: The cultural contradictions of libertarianism.. (September 12, 2007)
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    In the American Conservative, Robert Locke calls libertarianism the Marxism of the Right (14 March 2005).

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    What liberals think about libertarians can be found in The Libertarian Conceit, in American Prospect magazine, a liberal attack on libertarianism by Jonathan Purdy, a Yale law student (30 November 2002).
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    If you are still not satiated from reading the above, many more conservative critiques of libertarianism can be found in this splendid collection of links assembled by Mike Huben.
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  2. CharlestonChad
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    CharlestonChad Baller Deluxe

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    Since when did we start counting libertarians as conservatives? Please think before you make any more threads.
     
  3. Doug
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    Doug Active Member

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    Libertarians are not conservatives. That's why I used a term -- the Right --which subsumes them both. The whole point of the flipping thread is libertarians versus conservatives. Please read the post you are commenting about before making any more comments.
     
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  4. CharlestonChad
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    CharlestonChad Baller Deluxe

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    Ok, since when are Libertarians considered on the right? They have beliefs that fall left AND right.
     
  5. Toro
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    Toro Diamond Member

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    So what?

    Conservatives also have left and right beliefs, if you define the political spectrum through the use of government power.

    Conservatives have no problem regulating your social life. That's a left-wing proposition if you believe liberty and freedom is right-wing.
     
  6. midcan5
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    midcan5 liberal / progressive

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    Differences between conservatives and libertarians:

    Conservatives yes = tradition, hierarchy, nation, religion
    Conservatives no = government/state, social welfare, change, humanism, secularism, fairness, equality

    Libertarians yes = hierarchy, individualism, free market capitalism
    Libertarians no = government/state, social welfare, community, fairness, equality

    Biggest difference is conservatives are slightly less social darwinists than libertarians. Or at least they want you to believe that.

    But you see the meeting points and you quickly understand why they get along.


    Liberals yes = community, government/state, humanism, justice, fairness, equality
    Liberals no = tradition, hierarchy, deism, corporatism
     
  7. William Joyce
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    William Joyce Chemotherapy for PC

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    If only we actually had an operative policy battle between traditional conservatives and libertarians.

    Unfortunately, neither amount to much today. The dominators of American domestic policy are liberals, with the possible exception of gun rights. The dominators of foreign policy are the neoconservatives, who are essentially Trotskyite Jews who dumped the Soviet Union when it started backing Arabs over Israel decades ago.

    Conservatives, as noted, have given us limited gun rights. Libertarians have given us nothing.

    Racial realist thoughts on why Russell Kirk's conservatism has little traction:

    http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/archives/vol5no4/54-Wilson.pdf
     
  8. CharlestonChad
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    Equal freedoms and individualism are of up most importance in libertarian beliefs. In your review of the three group's beliefs, you didn't account for the same beliefs in each review, ie: you are not comparing the same beliefs among the three. And you did not correctly associate each group with their correct beliefs, IMO.

    I'll try to do this, so please edit what mistakes I'll make, b/c I know I'm going to make a few.
    C-Cons
    M-Libertarians
    L-LIberals

    Religion
    C-Yes in private and majority in favor of it involved in gov.
    M-Yes in private, against gov. involvement.
    L-Yes in private, against gov. involvement.

    Big Gov Spending
    C-No, but neoconservativism is in favor of larger overall gov in foreign policy, but smaller in income distribution
    M-No, 100% against
    L-Yes, but smaller in foreign affairs and larger in income distribution

    Capitalism
    C-Yes, but favor corp. welfare is increasing trend
    M-Yes, completely free market
    L-No

    Constitution Protection
    C-No, pick and choose which parts to follow
    M-Yes, basis of beliefs
    L-No, pick and choose which to parts to follow

    Individualism
    C-Yes, against community
    M-Yes
    L-No, favor communal interactions and reliance

    Equality and Fairness
    C-No, favor those with money
    M-Yes, equal rights
    L-No, favor those without money


    I'm not saying this to bash conservative christians, but does anyone else find it hypocritical to be against income distribution, welfare, and peaceful resolutions, yet call oneself a follower of a religion that is founded upon the opposite beliefs?
     
  9. Diuretic
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    Diuretic Permanently confused

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    No doubt some will trot out scripture to justify it.

    But I disgree with you no liberals and capitalism. Liberals aren't opposed to capitalism, some love it and wallow in it, some feel a bit guilty about the unequal distribution of wealth but they won't try hard to do anything about it, they'll just write about it. The Democratic Party is four square for capitalism and capitalism full strength. To find opposition to capitalism you can't look to the liberals, you have to look much further to the left.
     
  10. Doug
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    Doug Active Member

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    Christ was in favor of Affirmative Action, Gay Marriage, Abortion Rights, Socialized Medicine, the Collective Ownership of the Means of Production and Distribution and a generous Welfare provision for those who do not wish to work?

    You could have fooled me!

    Of course, "trotting out" references to Scripture to refute this claim would obviously be invalid, and a sneaky conservative trick. We know the politically-liberal beliefs of Christ, not by references to the words Christ supposedly spoke, but in a much better way, which is ....
     

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