Discussion in 'Middle East - General' started by Annie, Oct 16, 2006.
1. Utter Bullshit.
2. Utter Ignorance Of Indonesian History & Current Events
3. Utterly Counter-Productive
Much of what amounts to Islam in Indonesia is a cross between Islamic tenets of prayer and animalistic, pagan (shaman style? is that the word, i'm drawing a blank here) ancient traditions.
This is the majority of the population, the largest Muslim majority country in the world, where most of the population drinks often, increasingly enjoys secular entertainment ranging from booty music to provocative dress of female actresses and views the fundamentalist parties with contempt and fear.
The fact that there is a substantial minority in the country who support jihad and the fundamentalist parties are that these are the people who have been co-opted by the same social provider structure Hezbollah & Hamas excel so well at, albeit this is a 100% Saudi/Wahabbi backed venture.
This relates directly to the economic disasters that befell the country in the late 1990's, not to mention the obligatory corruption and decay of a third world dictatorship into a third world democracy.
The fact that by and large America has done jack shit for the Indonesian government to begin to control its security situation over the past five years dates back to Clinton-era worship of that famous false god, 3rd world democracy, and Sen. Jeffords's multiple laws that prevent everyone from the Secret Service to the US Marines to provide capable and substantive training and develop relationships with Indonesian military and security forces.
Re Indonesian sectarian warfare. Read up the history of Indonesia, examine the current population pressures, the wave of militia groups that have proliferated in the absence of effective security from the Indonesian government, etc. These particular Christians are guilty as sin for plotting to kill Muslims and others. Yep, its quite the holy war on some of those separtist islands like Aceh and Sumatra, but island by island, the government is taking them back and co-opting, imprisoning and out right killing the violent troublemakers on all sides.
Boycott Indonesia? Let's boycott ignorant asses like Malkin who have no idea of the history, culture or even religious nature of the countries cows like her go out of their way to slander w/o the slightest background info.
Hey Eddie, I wish life was fair. That the US had wonderfully brilliant, honest leadership, regardless of the party in power. I'll even take our less than brilliant, less than honest politicos over Indonesia. However, unless you think it worth our while to 'invade' them, their government is really as much their problem as ours is ours.
With that said, considering the people's responses on terrorism and 'diversity' I think I'll choose not to buy from there for the forseeable future.
Gee, talk about negative spin. Nevertheless most Indonesians favour more secular types of behaviour. And this was a poll. How accurate was it? What was the sample etc. As for not buying stuff, good luck with that - there is a shitload of stuff produced there that is sold to the western world. Most Indonesians, like most people anywhere. want a roof over their head and three squares a day. They don't have the luxury of thinking outside of their world, let alone the geopolitical situation in the region. The Christians and Muslims have always been at each others' throats. About the only ones who keep to themselves are the Hindu Balinese...
Yet another reason why I don't read Malkin...emotive pap with little or no substance...
Like much of what is put out by al Reuters and NY Times.
NY Times op-ed pieces? Possibly. Don't think Reuters does op-ed. Nothing emotive about their stuff. Just the facts as they know them at the time. Very rarely see any type of editorialising in their stuff.
Kathianne, guess what? Their government is OUR problem, if we give a damn about security in SE Asia, cooperation to sustain and even enhance our waning influence in Asia and the future of a successful Muslim majority country that can be a beacon of hope in an otherwise hopeless field in the Middle East and N. Africa.
We can make progress by working together with the Indonesians on security and intelligence, as we have slowly been now, recovering from the Clinton-era excesses, or we can give up because Michelle Malkin and her uninformed ilk say we should and that they're the experts on ALL Islam and all the world.
Informed commentary is always welcome, hers is more often a hodge podge of bullshit, like much of the blogosphere and the mass media.
Does Indonesia have serious problems? Certainly. Does the US have serious problems? Absolutely. Do we have COMMON problems? YEP! Do we have common hopes? Yep! So why not put the uninformed bullshit aside and work together, devoid of foolish idealism or ideology, and just with some tempered respect for seizing opportunities and addressing weaknesses.
Here I can agree with you NATO. Islam is animalistic. By the way, how does animism excuse the fact that some Islamic Indonesians persecute Christians? Perhaps their animistic belief that natural objects have souls compels their hatred for soulless infidels. I feel better already. It makes one feel so superior and empathetic when he truly understands the animalistic nature of Indonesian Islamic culture. That souless infidel Michelle Malkin is filled with "utter bullshit," just like some of the posts in this thread.
Eddie, I am all open to any ideas that will make the world a better place, though I think it's way late in the game to be taking on the fights of people who do not wish to work with the US, to them I'm now of the mindset of saying, 'fine, we will leave you alone.' Not invade, not coerce, just leave them alone.
Surely more than a bit of the problems have stemmed from our own errors in the past, no doubt of that. However, what I'm really tired of is that we've not been alone in making errors, only in trying to move up to the present situation. Others wish to fight a war on our 'mistakes of the past.' Which is certainly working for them. So for me, I'm for, 'ok, we'll leave you alone.'
We have our own cleaning up problems to deal with, starting with State and CIA. Then we should deal with threats to ourselves and our real allies, which number below probably 50.
Not only the op-eds, it's in their 'news' pieces, but then you happen to agree, so you're probably not catching the editorializing.
Separate names with a comma.