John Kerry excommunicated from Catholic Church

[Isaac Brock]

Forcing the hand? wha??

Look - this shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp...If John Kerry claims to 'be' a Catholic - follower of Catholocism, then it's honest and right for the Catholic Church to hold him to his claim; to BE a Catholic, one has to "DO" catholocism...which speaks against Abortion, and other issues Kerry supports and agrees with.

Why do liberals have such a horrible time comprehending absolutes?

It's not a matter of absolutes, d. Catholics will no longer have the right to be secular in governance, which bucks a trend in democracy that has existed ever since the French Revolution. A vote for a Catholic politician is now a vote for the Pope in office rather than the politician himself. This has not always been the case. In the 19th and 20th century, the Pope steered cleared of secular politics.

It would be interesting to see that last time a politician was excommunicated for secular governance. I'm sure it has been awhile, along while. It wasn't until 2002 where Pope JPII stated in his Doctrine of Faith, that can Politicians can be excommunicated for their political views. There has not been a precedent that I could find for over 300 years, though I am no Catholic scholar.

 

[dmp]

It's not a matter of absolutes, d. Catholics will no longer have the right to be secular in governance, which bucks a trend in democracy that has existed ever since the French Revolution. A vote for a Catholic politician is now a vote for the Pope in office rather than the politician himself. This has not always been the case. In the 19th and 20th century, the Pope steered cleared of secular politics.

It would be interesting to see that last time a politician was excommunicated for secular governance. I'm sure it has been awhile, along while. It wasn't until 2002 where Pope JPII stated in his Doctrine of Faith, that can Politicians can be excommunicated for their political views. There has not been a precedent that I could find for over 300 years, though I am no Catholic scholar.

Assuming candidates who politic as a catholic will uphold catholic points of view is 'common sense'.

 

[Isaac Brock]

You're getting hysterical. People have a right to claim they are a certain religions. Churches have a right to excommunicate people. The people have a right to know. Let the chips fall where they may. Maybe your buddy marbles is right, maybe this will massively weaken the church and the church will rue the day they "forced the hand of the politicians". I doubt it though.

Yes, they have a right to be excommunicated as I've said. Yes, people have the right to know. I'll bet my hand that you're wrong, and that the Church will lose political legitimacy for this trend. Time will tell who takes the pot.

 

[theim]

The Church will lose legitimacy for enforcing its own rules?

As I said before you need to get a grip on reality. "A vote for a Catholic is a vote for the Pope in office" gimme a freakn' break. If you don't act like a Catholic whats the point in being one. So Kerry gets kicked out of Church. Whoop-dee-fucking-do. Your near-bigotry toward Catholics is becoming old. No Catholic Politician calls the Pope for permission to make all his decisions.

 

[shadrack]

The people of the U.S. have the right to make any laws they see fit as long as the laws don't conflict with the Constitution. Citizens can make laws based upon their religious beliefs or they can make laws based upon their godless beliefs. It is a democratic process and making law based upon religious beliefs does not constitute a theocracy in the U.S.

If a person believes that life begins at conception, then he has every right in this country to vote for a law based on that belief just as another person who doesn't believe in life at conception can vote for a law based on that belief.

The majority wins. The losers can always then conclude that they are being "forced" if they want to, but that is the way our society operates.

I hate the fact that million of innocent babies are being aborted each year but the current law says that they can be aborted. Until we can vote that law out, I guess you could say that I am being "forced" to accept such heinous godless practices in my country.

Our founders were concerned with tyranny by the majority against individual's rights.

I hate the fact that millions of innocent babies are being aborted each year also, but you as an individual are not being forced to accept your desire to not have an abortion based on another's speculation even though you have the freedom to choose.

If the legislation passed a law based on religious speculation that made abortion illegal, then those that speculated differently would be "forced" to accept another individual's speculation. I don't see why you don't get that......ohhhh, you think your own personal speculation comes from God......

Both the conservative position and the feminist position on abortion have polarising and unacceptable implications. Given those two extreme choices, the conservative may be the least worse of the two but the majority wants a more middle ground.

 

[Bonnie]

What a great quote!


I could see this as a great caption on a poster with the pope wearing a leather jack with a marlboro in his mouth.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Such as?

Shopping on Sundays, allowing observance of other religious holidays, civil unions, decriminilization of adultry, capital punishment, divorce.

Many of your enshirined institutions and laws run a-foul of Cannonial, Catholic law.

Here's the problem we face; do we do what is Right by our God, or by the whims of political correctness? If a Catholic cannot be honest to their faith AND be in public service they should not run.

Indeed, now, they cannot.

 

[Bonnie]

The Church will lose legitimacy for enforcing its own rules?

As I said before you need to get a grip on reality. "A vote for a Catholic is a vote for the Pope in office" gimme a freakn' break. If you don't act like a Catholic whats the point in being one. So Kerry gets kicked out of Church. Whoop-dee-fucking-do. Your near-bigotry toward Catholics is becoming old. No Catholic Politician calls the Pope for permission to make all his decisions.

Isn't it interesting how upset this one insignifcant incident has the libs all riled up. When all along the church should have been holding it's members accountable. It's becoming comical to watch them squirm

 

[Bonnie]

I agree with Isaac. It's either going to create a fanatic state, or the slow removal of catholic beliefs in America. The Vatican is forcing the hands of politicians, but they might not have the royal flush needed to win.

Get a grip! The church excomminicated Kerry becasue as a Catholic he doesn't defend the life of unborn babies......Hardly a fanatic state. kerry is NOT A CATHOLIC, so we as a church have lost NOTHING, we'll get over, will you????

 

[Isaac Brock]

The Church will lose legitimacy for enforcing its own rules?

As I said before you need to get a grip on reality. "A vote for a Catholic is a vote for the Pope in office" gimme a freakn' break. If you don't act like a Catholic whats the point in being one. So Kerry gets kicked out of Church. Whoop-dee-fucking-do. Your near-bigotry toward Catholics is becoming old. No Catholic Politician calls the Pope for permission to make all his decisions.

Excuse me? Are you accusing me of biogtry? That's way out of line. Apparently, you haven't read a word I've said. I'm not anti-Catholic by any means and have not denounced any part of their faith, nor will I.

New doctrine will now have politicians of the Catholic faith subject to cannonial laws for decisions they make on behalf of their constituents. Cannonial laws are subject the change and approval by the Papacy. Therefore, a politician of Catholic faith is subject to the Papacy.

So if you're voting for a Catholic politician, your representation is subject to Papal influence. If you agree with Catholic doctrine on civil matters, then it's an excellent match. It just means that policy will not be based on the whims of the electorate, but on the whims of the Papacy.

Simply put, I don't agree with that. I believe that a person can practice their faith on their own, even try to influence their electorate with their faith and views thereof, but ultimately should be subject to the will of the electorate, not their faith. That may be contentious, but that is how I view democracy.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Excuse me? Are you accusing me of biogtry? That's way out of line. Apparently, you haven't read a word I've said. I'm not anti-Catholic by any means and have not denounced any part of their faith, nor will I.

New doctrine will now have politicians of the Catholic faith subject to cannonial laws for decisions they make on behalf of their constituents. Cannonial laws are subject the change and approval by the Papacy. Therefore, a politician of Catholic faith is subject to the Papacy.

So if you're voting for a Catholic politician, your representation is subject to Papal influence. If you agree with Catholic doctrine on civil matters, then it's an excellent match. It just means that policy will not be based on the whims of the electorate, but on the whims of the Papacy.

Simply put, I don't agree with that. I believe that a person can practice their faith on their own, even try to influence their electorate with their faith and views thereof, but ultimately should be subject to the will of the electorate, not their faith. That may be contentious, but that is how I view democracy.

Your right, but you're leaving out this part of the triangle: the electorate has a right to vote according to their faith. Not everyone will. Catholics are used to being slightly out of sync with their surrounding culture, it's called having principles; look into it.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Your right, but you're leaving out this part of the triangle: the electorate has a right to vote according to their faith. Not everyone will. Catholics are used to being slightly out of sync with their surrounding culture, it's called having principles; look into it.

Sticks and stones rwa, but I do agree that people have the right to vote according to their faith. That's perfectly fine with me. They only thing I wish is that my politicians, when they are in office, represent me and the majority wishes and values of the electorate. I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

[Bonnie]

Sticks and stones rwa, but I do agree that people have the right to vote according to their faith. That's perfectly fine with me. They only thing I wish is that my politicians, when they are in office, represent me and the majority wishes and values of the electorate. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Since when are Christians and Catholics in the monority???

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Sticks and stones rwa, but I do agree that people have the right to vote according to their faith. That's perfectly fine with me. They only thing I wish is that my politicians, when they are in office, represent me and the majority wishes and values of the electorate. I don't think that's too much to ask.

And that is still going on. The "Catholic Vote" is just another demographic like any other, like "soccer moms", civic professionals, gay truckers ....


Like many of us have already said, this is democracy in action. This is just like losing the endorsement of some single issue lobby group. Think of it that way, Isaac, think of them as them as "gun nuts" and feel soothed.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Since when are Christians and Catholics in the monority???

Christians certainly aren't. They represent 84% of the United States population. Catholics are at 28%.

 

[Bonnie]

Christians certainly aren't. They represent 84% of the United States population. Catholics are at 28%.

Well then Id say all demographics are being well represented!

 

[Isaac Brock]

And that is still going on. The "Catholic Vote" is just another demographic like any other, like "soccer moms", civic professionals, gay truckers ....


Like many of us have already said, this is democracy in action. This is just like losing the endorsement of some single issue lobby group. Think of it that way, Isaac, think of them as them as "gun nuts" and feel soothed.

And together, not alone, they make an electorate to which a politician has to represent.

Seeming as we're playing up political stereotypes enough, imagine an electorate with a bunch of interest groups, the gun nuts, tree hugging hippies, bingeing students, crumudgeons, yacht club yuppies and said Catholics. The yuppies, catholics and gun nuts band to support a Catholic candidate because the wacko lefty candidate was too busy spreading daisies and smoking up. Given the new cannonial laws, the rep must support repealing divorce laws, shopping on Sundays and making adultry illegal. Well the gun nuts are pissed because they can't get their guns on Sunday, the Yuppies are pissed off because they can no longer legally have their affair with the pool boy and the gold diggers can't divorce anymore.

Was democracy served? I suppose they got what they paid for, but why would we want to buy it now in the first place?

 

[Isaac Brock]

Well then Id say all demographics are being well represented!

Would that 58% majority of protestants want divorce outlawed? I doubt it! Henry the VIIIth would be rolling in his grave!

 

[shadrack]

The lefty libs believe it is their fundamental privilege and duty to see that the moral fiber of our country deteriorates to the point where individuals can no longer take care of themselves due to their utter inability to make responsible choices, so they must be dependant on government, good little group thinkers chanting, "That's not fair".


What the lefty libs don't get is that in their zeal to crush individual responsibility, they destroy any hope of the perfect society they claim to desire.

Lefty libs? What does that mean? You mean like the lefties that founded this country? Liberalism is all about individual rights and individual responsibilities.

Moral fiber will deteriorate if individual rights are afforded? Critics of the Constitution, at the time of its drafting, made those same claims. They have turned out to be incorrect.

 

[Bonnie]

Christians certainly aren't. They represent 84% of the United States population. Catholics are at 28%.

So Isaac how then would you like to see the Christian polulation represented in this country?