Jared Lee Loughner

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Vidi, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. Vidi
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    Vidi CDZ prohibited

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    Recently Jared Lee Loughner, who went on a shooting rampage killing 6 and wonding 13 others, stood before a judge and pled guilty. The Judge in the case remarked:

    But how did he become this "different person?

    When Loughners name first became public. I did some research and found that he had posted at another forum. One that I had spent some time posting on myself. And though I had not responded to him personally, I realized that I had read his posts when they were current and felt a chill run up my spine.

    Loughners posts were strange, often speaking about people creating their own currencies, that the governments currency was invalid, and often in a unique format ( much like SirJamesofTaxas or Mr. Shaman always post in a format ) and even his own syntax. Jared Lee Loughner spoke his own language.

    So the courrt deemed thatJared Lee Loughner was NOT competent to stand trial, but after year of heavy medication ...


    I admit Im torn on this one. Im not here making a statement looking for people to agree. Quite the opposite. I need convincing one way or the other. SO help me out here folks.

    This guy killed people, including a 9 year old girl. That right there, the child makes this even tougher for me. It makes me want this guy to pay. I want him dead when I think about that childs life cut short by his bullet. I think of my own children and how I would react and I just get crazy.

    But then, I see that Loughner is schizophrenic. And let me tell you, if youve ever had to deal with a schizophrenic in your life, you know theres stuff they just cant control. Its not in them to do it, ESPECIALLY if theyre an undiagnosed and unmedicated schizophrenic.

    So if he was not competent to stand trial, then how can he be held accountable for his actions, when it is clear and everyone involved agrees that the man is mentally ill?
     
  2. waltky
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    waltky Wise ol' monkey Supporting Member

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    Jared Loughner Gets 7 Life Sentences...
    :clap2:
    Loughner sentenced to 7 consecutive life terms
    Thu Nov 8, 2012 - U.S. District Judge Larry Burns on Thursday sentenced Tucson shooter Jared Loughner to seven consecutive life terms plus 140 years, calling the sentence “astronomical” and “justified” because Loughner “knew what he was doing” when he killed six and wounded 13 at a congressional event sponsored by then-U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords.
     
  3. Truthmatters
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    Truthmatters BANNED

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    Mentally ill people will always be a part of any human society.


    It is up to the rest of us to make sure they get treatment because most dont SEEK treatment bcuase their brains are no working correctly.

    when htey are allowed to go untreated and jsut mill about societies fringes then when they kill its our failure.


    Society can be stupid or smart in how it deals with things.

    I choose smart over stupid.

    mentally ill people should get treatment no matter how much money they have.
     
  4. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Chances are the NEXT mass murderer will ALSO be an under-treated mental patient. That profession needs to knuckle down to REAL QUANTATIVE science and stop relying on verbal and observational assessments. The science is progressing, but it's not getting into application quickly enough.

    If a University shrink SEES a nutcase like this one -- they need to err on the side of safety without doing damage to the person's reputation if they are wrong.
     
  5. oldfart
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    oldfart Older than dirt

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  6. Mr. H.
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    Mr. H. Diamond Member

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    My brother has gone off his meds serveral times over the years.
    It ain't pretty.
     
  7. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist Supporting Member

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    In the case of Karla Faye Tucker, she also became a different person and was no longer a threat; her violent crimes were committed while she was on drugs and not in control. But she was still given the death penalty because of the severe suffering inflicted on the murder victims. (In that case, she was responsible for her drug abuse problem; in this case, Loughner did not cause his schizophrenia, but either he or his parents did not get help for it either. Since there is no one legally to blame, the state should take responsibility; so detaining him for life is their way of doing that.)

    He can still offer to do voluntary restitution, especially if he is sane enough to recognize the harm he caused to others. He and his parents can help promote safer programs for earlier detection and treatment to prevent similar tragedies as in California and Colorado. (As for independent currency, this is already legal. In this case, if notes were issued to represent the debts and damages to citizens and taxpayers, then those bonds could be sold as shares in whatever programs or facilities need to be built to provide safe treatment/detention.)

    I believe we should follow the advice of former Gov. Schwarzeneggar and "build prisons in Mexico" to deport the costs of illegals back across the border. I would add, there should be policies enforced to require all citizens to sign agreements to pay for damages or debts caused if they commit premeditated violent crimes especially abusing firearms. And they can either get help in advance, if they have some criminal illness or condition, or if they don't, then violent convicts or repeat offenders should have the option of losing their citizenship and trading places with an applicant on the waiting list for immigration/work visas. So if you don't want to live as a law-abiding citizen, you can trade places with someone who will, and work in a factory in Mexico to pay for the cost of any crimes you commit instead of charging the costs to taxpayers and bankrupting the states and economy.

    If Loughner is sane and wants to help with future prevention, that is one way he could offer restitution, but on a voluntary basis.

    As for the damages and the state costs, on some level society failed to intervene and screen or catch this guy before he killed others. If it isn't his fault, it could be someone else's fault who might have had enough warning signs to report to authorities. If not, then maybe we should set up a system of registering citizens by district or school if there are any complaints of threats or harassment; where someone accepts legal responsibility if the person is allowed to run around unsupervised, but later deemed incompetent after a crime. And if you are so messed up, and refuse to get professional help, that no one will co-sign for you because you are too dangerous, that would trigger early intervention instead of risking public safety.

    If no one around him knew he was dangerous, where they cannot be held legally liable either, that is why it falls on the state to take responsibility if nobody else knew he was sick.

    In general, just like the Fort Hood incident, I believe there should be better methods of screening and diagnosis developed to help identify if people need help in advance. I believe this will come out of mental health/criminal justice reform to prevent crimes and correct abuses, instead of backlogging the system so much we miss identifying dangerous people.

    P.S. Scott Peck wrote a book urging medical professionals and psychiatrists to pursue formal research studies and development in spiritual healing and therapy of schizophrenic patients by applying the methods of diagnosis/treatment used in deliverance/exorcism to get rid of demonic obsessions controlling the mind and will of sick patients ("Glimpses of the Devil" by Scott M. Peck) I believe medical research will confirm these methods as effective, and technology will give scientists greater ability to diagnose and measure criminal illness before and after treatment is applied to show if the addictions are gone or in remission or what. So there is more that the legal, medical and govt authorities can do to develop better means of addressing dangerous cases of criminal illness before anyone gets injured, harmed or killed.
     
  8. Nightson
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    This story highlights a contemporary social issue that is both very poignant for those stricken with mental illness and the bystander in general who needs cope with their desire for justice, yet still treat with some degree of compassion those without complete control over their actions. Part of the problem I would suggest lies within the law governing prosecutorial/defense procedures and establisment of burden of proof in relation to proving at trial the mental state of the accused. Both sides call credentialled mental health professionals as witnesses and I think some degree of concern for the accused's personal welfare and constitutional rights are lost in this process of contradictory testimony. On one hand a heinous crime has been committed and both the victims' surviving family members and the state demand reckoning, while on the other a very sick individual may enter into the most important legal process of his life, without full or any understanding of the transpiring event. I would like to believe in social and familial saftey nets in cases like this--in the willingness of friends, family members and peers to sound an alarm, but such has been proven ineffectual time and again. I empathize with your internal struggle over this issue, and though I have no good answer to such, I do believe that to struggle with ones own conscience as you seem be is a very healthy and human process.
     
  9. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist Supporting Member

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    Great idea to use them in the sentencing phase only. The use of "mental health" courts is catching on, so whatever legal language is required to change for such cases, I hope the point is the same -- to make sure dangerous people are detained and not left unsupervised.

    As for curing Schizophrenia, it depends on the case and the cause.

    I have read two books that mention Schizophrenic patients being cured, if the problem is demonic voices that can be removed permanently through exorcism/deliverance and therapy to treat the person's mind AFTER the invading thoughts are managed first.

    One book is HEALING by Francis MacNutt (later editions after 1999 also add a medical study on Rheumatoid Arthritis where patients experienced various levels of healing, some 100% cured, after applying methods of generational healing and forgiveness therapy/prayer).
    Another that is more specifically about Schizophrenia (two patients who were otherwise untreatable, where one fully recovered to normal function and the other died of advanced diseases related to her self-abuse because she went too long without medical treatment)
    "Glimpses of the Devil" by Scott M. Peck. His book is particularly interesting because he didn't believe in spirits or exorcism, and expected his studies to prove he was right; instead he changed his mind and admitted his observations demonstrated the opposite of what he thought, that he COULD apply the scientific method to identifying the cause of the sickness and stages of treatment, and assess whether or not the patient was cured afterward. I recommend both books to anyone in the mental health or medical profession, because they point toward reforms that could totally revoluntionize the prison and mental health systems.
    Instead of punishing people after the fact, after their criminal illnesses and abuses go untreated and harm or kill people; if more people are treated for medical conditions, then more of these cases can be detected early to prevent them from becoming fatal.

    And if Schizophrenia (or even Pedophilia) can be treated and cured, by addressing the spiritual cause of addiction or obsessions, and if science can be used to monitor or measure the degree or danger of the conditions, then we don't have to play legal guessing games.
    If we can use medical science to prove if someone is a continuing threat to others, that could provide for more clear decisions and accountability in the legal/judicial process
    (instead of legal defense letting someone off the hook if there is no "proof" of danger).
     
  10. Wiseacre
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    Wiseacre Retired USAF Chief Supporting Member

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    Looks like 2 issues, the death penalty and the insanity defense.

    I've been a proponent of the death penalty for a long time. Wanton and deliberate taking of life should result in the loss of your own; nothing to do with religion or whether it's a deterrent to future murders, for me it's simple justice. Not about money either, something like this shouldn't boil down to dollars and cents. I like the fact that these cases do get automatic appeal, and governors and I think the president can issue a stay of execution if necessary.

    The other issue of the insanity plea like in the Loughner case is and should be an available course of action for the defense. It should be difficult to prove for the defendant, but if the court finds that the person was insane enough to where he/she could not distinguish between right and wrong, then I think the death penalty should be taken off the table. However, I also think a person such as Loughner who commits murder cannot ever be freed, as a society we cannot allow anyone a second chance to kill again. I do not believe there could be any situation where someone's future behavior is guaranteed so that they are not a danger to society.
     
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