I need a muslim please

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by actsnoblemartin, May 18, 2010.

  1. actsnoblemartin
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    actsnoblemartin I love Andrea & April

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    no this is not an anti islamic or attack of islam.

    I have some questions

    what about some of the verses of the koran, sorry, always get the spelling messed up.

    and yes i know the bible and torah are not the nicest either

    but im confused, some of the verses in the koran

    #1 Should i ignore the verses that promote hatred, are they taken out of context, if so what is the context?

    #2 why do muslims not understand that israel and palestine were both mandated by the u.n. for partition, why do they hate israel/israelies, and want all the land, and why do many or some muslims support jihad which to me is cowardly against anyone non muslim in the middle east.

    Im not trying to say islam is terrible, I dont know. I wanna like it, but i need some context here. Why do terrorists use the koran to excuse their deeds?, what is in there that allows them to do so?

    (see this website for example)

    TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Verses of Violence

    examples like

    The Qur'an:

    Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.



    Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



    Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.

    Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

    Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

    Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of AllahÂ…"

    Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
     
  2. sakura
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    sakura Rookie

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    People who frequent Islamophobic sites are usually not serious about understanding the Muslim perspective---but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.......

    #2 why do muslims not understand that israel and palestine were both mandated by the u.n. for partition,
    why do they hate israel/israelies, and want all the land,
    and why do many or some muslims support jihad which to me is cowardly against anyone non muslim in the middle east.

    I will also answer your 1st question---let me first answer the group of questions above---

    1) I think, the current consensus is that of the "two-state solution" more or less in the lines of Oslo agreement.....?
    2) Muslims do not hate Isreal/Isreali or Jews. Most Middle-Easterners are not happy with Zionism---and there are many Jews who are also unhappy with the Zionist ideology.
    3) "Jihad" is a struggle, First and foremeost, it is an internal struggle to continue to resist egoic temptation and strive for the noble virtues, and secondly, it is a struggle for social justice and against oppression. ---therefore, workers going on strike for better work conditions would be doing Jihad.
     
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  3. sakura
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    sakura Rookie

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    I am going to give you 3 different translations for purposes of comparision. The names Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Shakir are of the translators. If you read carefully, you understand that these verses are calling for defense against attack, they are asking that even during the battle, standards of decency be maintained,(---as already specified in other verses in the Quran), that the cause of freedom from opression and persecution is worth fighting for, that Justice and rule of law are important, but at the same time, hostilities must cease immedeatly when the first oppurtunity arises.---that enmity must not needlessy continue.

    Historical context----the persecuted Muslims fled Mecca and sought refuge in Yathrib/Medina. The Meccans, unhappy with the fleeing Muslims finding refuge in Medina, commenced the battle of Badr. ---these verses are about the "right to self-defense".

    002.190
    YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
    PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
    SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

    002.191
    YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
    PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
    SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

    002.192
    YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
    PICKTHAL: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    SHAKIR: But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    002.193
    YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
    PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
    SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
     
  4. sakura
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    sakura Rookie

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    Your final question---why do terrorist use the Quran to excuse their deeds?
    They do not---in fact---cannot---use the Quran to excuse their deeds as there is nothing in the Quran that condones terrorism.
     
  5. pinqy
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    pinqy Gold Member

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    Do you think there's only one answer? For some the verses do promote hatred, for others, they seem to promote hatred but must be understood in context, and for others they don't promote hatred at all. It all depends on the country, the sect, the school, the individual etc. It's ridiculous to claim or to the think that the Koran, or the Bible, or the Vedas etc have only one definitive interpretation except one known only to God.

    First, you do understand that the majority of Muslims don't live in the Middle East and most probably don't care about Israel or Palestine? Secondly, the conflict is complicated...Everyone understands that the Palestine area was mandated for partition, but many, Jews and Arabs, didn't particularly care for that and both sides acted poorly in reaction to the attempt. If you're going to ask why Muslims/Arabs hate Israel and want all the land, you also have to ask why Jews hate Palestinians and want all the land. I'm not defending either group, they're both wrong in my opinion.

    As for Jihad, there are multiple possibilities, depending on the individual. Some honestly believe that the perceived takeover of Muslim land by Jews is an assault on Islam and therefore meets the necessary criteria for defense as specified in the Koran. Some just follow what they're taught/told by others and believe without actually thinking about it. Some are poor, uneducated men who have little to no expectations of a decent future and so turn to extremism as a way of feeling like they're a part of something bigger and having a purpose. This is true not just for the Palestinian conflict, but the Taliban in Afghanistan, the IRA in Ireland, the Basque seperatists, street gangs, and various other extremist/revolutionary groups worldwide.

    Jihad means struggle...and the most widely accepted interpretation is of internal, personal struggle. Struggle against opposing forces is also recognized but generally not considered applicable.

    Why do they use the Koran? Because they need some excuse. And not all do...there are some anti-Israel groups that tend to frame the conflict as more political than religious...and religious motivation is secondary in Iraq and Afghanistan. People always look for an excuse for any of their actions, and religious excuses are often preferred because they're the hardest to refute. Do you need the list of terrible things the Bible was used to exuse?
     
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  6. skookerasbil
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    skookerasbil Gold Member

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    Look...........heres all you have to know..................

    70% of the Lebense people support Hezbollah. Remember.......political correctness has been running amock in terms of Islam over the past decade. The multiculturalists want Americans to think that there are about 100 radical terror bad guys out there!!! Remember...........on 9-11, every Islamic country threw massive parties!!! Only the PC sheep were born a couple of Monday's ago............
     
  7. pinqy
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    pinqy Gold Member

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    I've never heard of the Lebense people. It's possible you meant Lebanese, though. I'd like to see your source for that claim.

    And now you're lying. I'm not aware of even one country, even Afghanistan, where the governemnt publically celebrated or there were any parties on a mass scale. So to back up your claim, I'm sure you have the newspaper articles from 2001 detailing these mass parties and "every Islamic country."

    I would bet you can't even name 10 Muslim dominant countries, let alone the ones which have been our allies in Afghanistan.
     
  8. CMike
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    CMike Zionist, proud to be

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    I believe people are individuals first. I believe people of any religion basically want the same thing such as security, happiness, etc.

    I condemn people for what they say and do, not what that religion is.
     

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