Hey...bernie bros....the Swedes aren't socialists....

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by 2aguy, Feb 15, 2020.

  1. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    A look at the so called Nordic Socialist countries....

    INTERVIEW (Part I): Swedish Author Johan Norberg On The Devastating Impact Of Socialism, And What It Could Cost The U.S.

    DW: There are a lot of people who cite the so-called “Nordic model” when advocating for socialism or “democratic socialism.” Is Sweden a socialist nation? And if it’s not, why do people seem to think it is?

    NORBERG: Well, for some reason when I describe Sweden and Swedish policies to American socialists, they hate it; they seem to think that it’s awful. It’s a model not just based on an economy of private property and private enterprise, but also specifically, when you look at the business climate, we have low corporate taxes, we have free trade, we have, in many areas I would say, less regulation of business than the United States. We don’t have the kind of occupational licensing requirements that you do. In many of those areas, we are more fiercely capitalist than the United States. And those don’t seem to be the policies that the [Sen. Bernie] Sanders supporters are in favor of.

    And if you also think about the kind of reforms that we’ve put in place since the 1990s – we’ve reformed social security, partially privatized it; we’ve opened up the public sector to competition and to freedom of choice; we have a national school voucher system – many different things to encourage dynamism and market forces. And that seems to be the total opposite of what any socialist that I’ve met is in favor of.

    DW: Can you give me the abridged version of what happened in Sweden with the accumulation of wealth, the implementation of socialism, and then the realization that such ideas were not working?

    NORBERG: Sure. We have to go back to that because this is the one story that people have forgotten. Their perception of Sweden is in many ways stuck in the 1970s and 1980s. That’s what they remember. This was the brief interlude in Swedish history when we really did experiment with socialist ideals. The background was that we had already made ourselves one of the richest countries on the planet, so we had a lot of money to redistribute. But, that was based on a different model. All that wealth was produced in an incredibly open economic model with a very limited government. Up until the early 1960s, Sweden had lower taxes than not just other European countries, but also lower taxes than the United States. That was the model that gave us all the wealth.

    At that point, Swedish socialists and politicians said, “Let’s just redistribute this. We’ve got all of this wealth, so we don’t have to care about economic orthodoxy anymore.” And that’s the moment in time when they doubled the size of government, and jacked up all the taxes, and regulated the labor markets. The problem was that while you can go for some time with the accumulated wealth of yesteryear, eventually, you run out of it. At the beginning of the 1970s, we were 10% richer than other industrialized economies. 25 years later, we were 10% poorer than they were.

    So almost at the exact moment when we began to grow the size of government, we began to lag behind all the other economies, and it was really the “Atlas Shrugged” moment in Swedish history because businesses left, entrepreneurs, innovators, our IKEAs and Tetra Paks, our great inventors and sportsman left Sweden because it wasn’t a hospitable climate for innovation and for starting businesses anymore. It all ended in a terrible crisis in the early 1990s, and that was the moment in time when everybody from the Left to the Right said, “This is all over. We can’t do this. We have to reform our systems and get back to the future, to get back to growth.”
     
  2. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    Yeah....and this guy explains why socialism always fails....

    But....but...it worked in Israel...right? In the Kibbutz....Right?

    DW: What’s your opinion of socialism as a philosophical concept, and as a form of government?

    NORBERG: Lots of people say that the ideas of socialism are wonderful, it’s just that the means were too brutal and awful, and the means corrupted the ends in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union and Venezuela. Therefore, it collapsed. I would say it is the other way around. It’s the complete opposite. The problem is that socialism goes against human nature. It is the total opposite of any kind of system of human morality, and that’s why they always end up with walls and barbed wire and machine guns because that’s the only way to force people to do it. We know this because we’ve seen so many different experiments with socialism – even libertarian voluntary forms of socialism, like the kibbutz in Israel for example, and they were done by idealists.

    No one was forced to work collectively. From each according to his ability, to each according to their needs – but it didn’t even work there. What happened was that people didn’t want that regimentation, that kind of collective ownership. People began to demand to do things in different ways and own stuff. They began to realize that when everything was in common, they began to waste stuff. People kept the light up and the heat during night when they didn’t need it because they didn’t have to pay market prices. People took their pets to the dining room because food was free.

    So people began to demand this kind of freedom, and when it came to work, what happened was that as one of the kibbutzim pioneers said, “It became a paradise for parasites” because if you don’t get your wage according to what you’ve done, the effort you put into it, why bother? Why do you ever work at all, in that case?

    People of talent then began to leave the kibbutz.

    The thing is, had this been Eastern Germany or Venezuela or the Soviet Union, they saw the same thing, and forced people to work, not for gain of a profit, but for the government, they had to force them. They brought out the machine guns. And if people wanted to leave for another place, they built the walls and they killed people who did it.


    So, it’s really that the brutal ends were a result of the whole system going so much against the human nature of people who want some freedom, who want some individual responsibility, and who want to gain according to what they do rather than what the governments tell them.

    That’s a very long way of answering the question, but I think that’s important for the philosophical part of it. It’s not that the means corrupted the ends. It’s that the ends would never work, and that’s why they needed brutal means.
     
  3. sparky
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    sparky Gold Member

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    The turnabout on this ^^^ is any system can fail, as in the case of unregulated capitalism resulting in exponential disparity, and finally socialist interventions

    This being exactly WHY 'socialist bashing ' has become PC in America right now

    The 1%ers , who essentially BROKE capitalism , don't want the American people confronting the system , nor their piece of the Fed pie.....(biggest socialist handout our country has ever seen)

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    ~S~
     
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  4. Death Angel
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    America's corporate tax rate 35%
    Sweden's 20.6%
     
  5. Mac1958
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    Mac1958 Diamond Member

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    So the Nordic countries aren't "socialist", but if their economic & fiscal strategies were used here, the Trumpsters would be screaming

    SOCIALISM

    Okay, got it.

    :laugh:
    .
     
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  6. there4eyeM
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    there4eyeM unlicensed metaphysician

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    There is no reason to be "socialist". There is no reason to be "capitalist"; There is every reason to be eclectic.
     
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  7. Mac1958
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    Mac1958 Diamond Member

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    America used to be able to do that.
     
  8. Deplorable Yankee
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    Deplorable Yankee Gold Member

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    They think adam Smith is responsible for Q.e. or that he led us to it lol. Derp

    Capitalism works its humans , government policy , and overreach that fail us ..

    The even dumber idiots on the board will carry on how the military ,the post office, your sewer pipes ,and our dysfunctional socail safety nets are socialism...
    Not exactly
    Some argue Smith...besides your sewer pipes would of been for universal health coverage ....and they're probably right
    But If he saw the way the establishment operates today ....I doubt it ...ferp
     
  9. colfax_m
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    colfax_m Silver Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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