Hayes: We Are No Longer Able To Tax The Very Rich In Our Country

[Widdekind]

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2005.pdf

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/livingwages/

In 1990 & 1991, the (Federal) minimum wage was increased by about +$1. Until 1990, the number of jobs in the US had been increasing at +2 million jobs per year. But in 1990 & 1991, nearly no net jobs were created. Arguably, raising the minimum wage by +$1 prevented the creation of about +4 million jobs.

Criminalizing low-pay jobs does not affect "doctors, lawyers, and business types". So, criminalizing low-pay jobs, by imposing minimum wages, affects whom?



EDIT: the following figure plots, for the US, the fraction of workers earning minimum wage (%), vs. the real minimum wage (2010 USD). As inflation decreases ("erodes") the real minimum wage, the fraction of workers earning minimum wage decreases. According to the data, decreasing the real minimum wage to $5 per hour, would allow US businesses to hire everybody they wanted to hire

 

[Rshermr]

workers need to "put themselves in employers' shoes", and think like bosses. If the prices of hamburgers, haircuts, or taxis were suddenly increased (by government mandate), then would people "automatically" pay the new, higher prices? Or, would people say "haircuts cost $100, no way, i'll use a bowl and scissors before i pay that" ?

Or, perhaps more simply, workers might imagine directly asking their bosses, to their faces, for pay-raises, up to the government minimum wage. What response would workers expect to receive, if they walked into boss' office, and demanded $10/hour? If boss would fire workers, individually, at that price; then boss would fire the whole workforce, and close up shop, if (with government help) the whole workforce asked for $10/hour, via minimum wage laws.

Every worker already thinks about asking for raises, whenever they're working. Overall, workers already are paid what they're worth (economically). (Unless there's government repression.) Big Brother demanding boss raise wages is "shaking down businesses", which only tears down thousands of shops & millions of jobs. Long-term economic growth will not result, from "beating up on" businesses.

Complete nonsense. You may understand this, but I question whether you do or are simply stating con dogma.
Unions are quite simply a response to monopoly power of those people who hire them. A single employee has no way to argue and get better pay and working conditions when dealing with employers who control the labor market. Simply look at the history of labor before unions existed, and what happened when workers tried to organize.
Union coverage has decreased steadily since Reagan. Something you may be proud of. And during the same time period, the middle class has decreased in size, and the poor class has increased in size, Now, that is the repub dream. Lower wages, and smaller unions are great for the wealthy who hire labor, and pay the repubs. And all too many dems, as well.

What you choose to ignore is that raising the minimum wage provides more dollars to low income people, who SPEND almost all of those dollars. The result is generally some increase in economic activity and a decrease in unemployment over the next year or so.

So, you are for no monopoly power for labor in the form of unions, but have no problem with monopoly power of corporations. Tells me what you think of the middle class.

 

[Rshermr]

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2005.pdf

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/livingwages/

In 1990 & 1991, the (Federal) minimum wage was increased by about +$1. Until 1990, the number of jobs in the US had been increasing at +2 million jobs per year. But in 1990 & 1991, nearly no net jobs were created. Arguably, raising the minimum wage by +$1 prevented the creation of about +4 million jobs.

Criminalizing low-pay jobs does not affect "doctors, lawyers, and business types". So, criminalizing low-pay jobs, by imposing minimum wages, affects whom?



EDIT: the following figure plots, for the US, the fraction of workers earning minimum wage (%), vs. the real minimum wage (2010 USD). As inflation decreases ("erodes") the real minimum wage, the fraction of workers earning minimum wage decreases. According to the data, decreasing the real minimum wage to $5 per hour, would allow US businesses to hire everybody they wanted to hire

And, of course, as you would like, require workers to work more jobs. Your graph proves absolutely nothing. You are simply trying to make a point with vacuous claims. We get it, Widdle, you are a con, you hate the middle class, you hate unions. What is original about that??

The Job Loss Myth | Raise The Minimum Wage
Minimum Wage Increases Promote Jobs: Study

 

[Rshermr]

No top heavy society survives for very long.

more money, would flow to more poor Americans, if the low-pay labor, that they were able to offer, were de-criminalized, by eliminating minimum wage laws. Job Prohibition, of low-pay jobs, bans & outlaws gainful employment, to millions of Americans. More money would flow to them, as income from gainful work, if they were allowed to work, for what they are (now) worth, today. (By tomorrow, they would gain employment skills, and be able to move "up", to higher pay positions.)

I have a much better idea. Lets tax the wealthy. Please, Widdle, don't feint. Its just that you seem to want to take from the poor and give to the rich, always pushing the con agenda. I always know what you will say on a subject. Just visit a couple of tea party web sites, read their position on issues, and there you go. Thats where Widdle will be.
Lower wages. Makes the corporations who own repubs and the tea party happy. And you are ALWAYS right there with their position. Even if it is provably wrong.
Just follow your political hero, Reagan. Even he knew he heeded to raise taxes in order to decrease the unemployment his policies had created.

 

[expat_panama]

the US economy is 30x larger today, than in 1960.

The problem is not volume but distribution...

The left hate rising incomes for all if the rich gain more than the poor. Unfortunately the left never put their talk into practice by leaving the US to live where there are no rich people.

 

[Sallow]

...Minimum wage laws do not increase wages. MWL's can only make it illegal to hire low wage workers and it's physically impossible for a gov't to make a business pay more for labor than it's worth.

I'd love government to get out of the way of Labor/Executive relations. You?

I'm sorry but I totally missed the joke, but seriously, we probably both already agree that business can't exist without governments and governments can't exist without business. It's just like a family.



--always fighting.

No..it was no joke.

There was a time when government stayed out of this sort of stuff.

That was until things the government needed stopped being produced. Then government interfered. And sometimes it got bloody. But in the end..government struck a bargain. They allowed for Unions..and things like minimum wage. And..executives got to keep their factories and lives in tact.

You see..it was executives that called in government in the first place.

 

[Sallow]

the US economy is 30x larger today, than in 1960.

The problem is not volume but distribution...

The left hate rising incomes for all if the rich gain more than the poor. Unfortunately the left never put their talk into practice by leaving the US to live where there are no rich people.

Is executive to employee compensation of over 400:1 a healthy situation?

We are the only major industrialized modern country that allows that..

 

[chanel]

Do you have any stats on how many execs earn that? Just curious.

 

[Sallow]

Do you have any stats on how many execs earn that? Just curious.

Earn? None of them "earn" it.

Let me google that for you

 

[chanel]

Says who?

No stats eh? My guess is that it's a couple hundred if you include the overpaid celebrities and athletes.

 

[daveman]

Do you have any stats on how many execs earn that? Just curious.

Earn? None of them "earn" it.

Let me google that for you

You misspelled "I can't back up my claims".

 

[Widdekind]

raising the minimum wage provides more dollars to low income people, who SPEND almost all of those dollars. The result is generally some increase in economic activity and a decrease in unemployment over the next year or so.

Increasing the minimum wage prompts businesses to fire millions of Americans, rather than pay unprofitably high government-mandated wages. Then, over the ensuing years, as inflation erodes the real value of that minimum wage, businesses gradually can afford to rehire people, into regenerated jobs. That is why unemployment decreases "over the next year or so", after increasing in the first year

you seem to want to take from the poor and give to the rich

decriminalizing low-pay jobs would give jobs & incomes to poor, unemployed people

Is executive to employee compensation of over 400:1 a healthy situation?

a few wealthy executives is not a country-wide concern. Millions of unemployed people are. Eliminating minimum wages, that outlaw their jobs, would re-employ millions of Americans. Giving jobs & incomes to millions of Americans is a country-wide concern.

 

[Skull Pilot]

This is true. We no longer tax the rich. The richest companies pay very little in taxes. The richest Americans pay very little in taxes. In 2010, Romney paid under 14% all federal taxes combined, which is very typical of the rich. The middle class pays about 25%.

Wrong.

The marginal tax rate is NOT the tax paid on all of one's income. When will you people take some time to learn wtf you are talking about?
How Much Do People Pay in Federal Taxes? | pgpf.org

You see from the chart that more than 90% of people pay less than 15% of their income to federal income taxes.

In terms of total income the average tax for all tax payers is about 11-12 % of gross income.

 

[Widdekind]

In the US, over 700,000 lawyers earn over $100,000 per year, or nearly $100B per year in total. Those billions of dollars reflect law and tax-avoidance fees, which should be added to the official taxes, of US businesses and (higher-income) persons.

Lawyers : Occupational Outlook Handbook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
Average Tax Attorney II Salary Information plus Job, Career Education & Unemployment Help

 

[Sallow]

Do you have any stats on how many execs earn that? Just curious.

Earn? None of them "earn" it.

Let me google that for you

You misspelled "I can't back up my claims".

No..it spells google works for everyone.

CEO pay and the top 1%: How executive compensation and financial-sector pay have fueled income inequality | Economic Policy Institute
The ratio of CEO to worker compensation: Are they worth it? | The Economist
CEO-to-Worker Pay Gap
Dimon Widens Gap With JPMorgan as Wall Street Pay Slides - Businessweek
The Week in Ethics: The Hidden Costs in Excessive Executive Compensation « Gael O
Average Fortune 500 CEO Now Paid 380 Times As Much As The Average Worker | ThinkProgress

It always spells getting tired of providing links that are pretty much dismissed.

 

[Friends]

...increasing the income of low wage workers through increases in the minimum wage...

Lot's of people think that, so you're in really good company.

Only it's not true. Minimum wage laws do not increase wages. MWL's can only make it illegal to hire low wage workers and it's physically impossible for a gov't to make a business pay more for labor than it's worth.

I'd love government to get out of the way of Labor/Executive relations.

You?

Obviously not.

 

[Widdekind]

Rather than "griping" about a few CEOs; improve the lives of low income persons, by eliminating minimum wage laws, and re-employing millions. "Reach back, and lend a helping hand", rather than "reach forward, and trip up".

 

[Sallow]

Rather than "griping" about a few CEOs; improve the lives of low income persons, by eliminating minimum wage laws, and re-employing millions. "Reach back, and lend a helping hand", rather than "reach forward, and trip up".

What do you mean a "few".

THERE ARE ONLY A FEW.

It's not a large part of the population. But they control a LARGE part of the wealth.

That a big freakin problem. Because the supreme court ruled that money is speech. So in addition to unmitigated access to politicians via lobbyists..they can now buy an incredible amount of media to brain wash to the masses. And..as a bonus..they can do it in secret.

 

[expat_panama]

...Is executive to employee compensation of over 400:1 a healthy situation?...

Excellent question at the core of the discussion --thanks!

The short answer is that top pay @ >400 times low pay is good, necessary, and something we all end up going to no matter what we say we want. The longer answer is that life has to be interesting so it's diverse. In a town of 400 people it's ok if only one doctor heals everyone and some other guy is a plumber that unstops everyone's toilets. If everyone in town wants to strut their health wisdom and nobody likes poop, then the plumber's going to get paid 400 times what the Doctor gets.

Being a corporate CEO is really difficult. Sure it's very hard work but that's not even the start because instead of mere effort it requires results. Most people can't or don't like to do something this much work so good CEO's are very hard to find and we have to pay them a lot.

...We are the only major industrialized modern country that allows that...

---and people from all over the world want to move to the US because they know that this is where the world's talent is moving. For the last few years there's been a big nation wide push to get even with talented people and make them worse off, and consequently foreign immigration has been easing. People are better off where top pay is > 400 bottom pay.

 

[Widdekind]

Rather than "griping" about a few CEOs; improve the lives of low income persons, by eliminating minimum wage laws, and re-employing millions. "Reach back, and lend a helping hand", rather than "reach forward, and trip up".

What do you mean a "few".

THERE ARE ONLY A FEW.

It's not a large part of the population. But they control a LARGE part of the wealth.

That a big freakin problem. Because the supreme court ruled that money is speech. So in addition to unmitigated access to politicians via lobbyists..they can now buy an incredible amount of media to brain wash to the masses. And..as a bonus..they can do it in secret.

you understand, that millions of Americans are unemployed, and many are struggling to feed their children & pay for housing? Eliminating the minimum wage would allow businesses to begin re-expanding, into low income areas, with low pay jobs, that would give many people, some income. What does you or me, complaining about a few CEOs, actually do for those many many Americans? "i really care" does not actually do any real good; nothing can be called "good", which does no good. Eliminating minimum wage laws, would be better than nothing, for lots of people.

Which would be better, for America -- making a few Americans much worse off; or making many many Americans at least a little better off ? Eliminating minimum wages would be an "all gains no losses, positive sum" solution.