Free speech or Bullying?

[Tank]

Soon it will be a hate crime to refuse to have sex with a homosexual

 

[jeffrockit]

In classes children should speak only when the teacher prompts.
In the halls, another matter. But bullying should never be tolerated anywhere on school property.

How the kid's opinion can be construed as bullying is asinine.

 

[syrenn]

DETROIT -- Michigan high school teacher Jay McDowell says he didn't like where the discussion was going after a student told his classmates he didn't "accept gays."

So McDowell kicked the boy out of class for a day.

In return, the teacher was suspended for a day without pay for violating the student's free speech rights.

The incident has sparked intense debate in Howell, about 45 miles northwest of Detroit. It's gained far wider attention since the Livingston County Press and Argus released video of a 14-year-old gay student from another city defending McDowell at a Howell school board meeting.

The video has drawn thousands of YouTube views. Howell schools on Monday hosted a community forum to discuss tolerance and diversity issues.

FoxNews.com - Teacher Suspended for Kicking Out Student Over Anti-Gay Speech

I wasn't aware that CHILDREN had free speech at school. It seems teachers are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Comments?

There is a huge difference between stating an opinion during a discussion in class or for that matter stating any opinion and bullying.

If students are not allowed to state their opinion when ASKED to do so then there is something very wrong with the system. Is rather like getting a question on a test that asks your opinion. How do you get that answer wrong if they are asking your opinion?

 

[SmarterThanHick]

so the teacher disciplined the kid for his beliefs, and the school then turned around and disciplined the teacher for hers. wow. wonder where that school system ranks.

 

[Madeline]

Only one of the cases I found concerned verbalizations by students:

Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community School District (1969) students may wear black armbands to protest Vietnam War.

Papish v. Bd. of Curators of the Univ. of Missouri (1973) contents of college newspaper alleged to have been obscene protected.

Bethel School District No. 403 v. Fraser (1986) obscene speech by student at a high school assembly (SCOTUS found in favor of the school).

Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier (1988) school control of contents of a HS newspaper; SCOTUS found in favor of the school.

Morse v Frederick (2007) banner promoting drug use displayed by students at a school function confiscated by school officials; SCOTUS found for the school.

The First Amendment guarantees wide freedom in matters of adult public discourse. A sharply divided Court upheld the right to express an antidraft viewpoint in a public place, albeit in terms highly offensive to most citizens. See Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971). It does not follow, however, that simply because the use of an offensive form of expression may not be prohibited to adults making what the speaker considers a political point, the same latitude must be permitted to children in a public school.

In New Jersey v. T. L. O., 469 U.S. 325 (1985), we reaffirmed that the constitutional rights of students in public school are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings. As cogently expressed by Judge Newman, "the First Amendment gives a high school student the classroom right to wear Tinker's armband, but not Cohen's jacket [Cohen's jacket said "Fuck the Draft"].

Bethel School District vs Fraser

 

[ConHog]

Student's have no, and indeed can not have the complete freedom of speech that we enjoy while they are in school. Hell, teachers in fact do not have such freedom. It's not conducive to a good educational environment.

Now in THIS particular situation, I have a few questions. How far did things progress before the student was asked to leave the class, and once asked to leave where did he go? In OUR school when a student is asked to leave a class for disciplinary reasons, they are sent to the vice principal of discipline and either disciplined or sent back to class.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Student's have no, and indeed can not have the complete freedom of speech that we enjoy while they are in school. Hell, teachers in fact do not have such freedom. It's not conducive to a good educational environment.

Now in THIS particular situation, I have a few questions. How far did things progress before the student was asked to leave the class, and once asked to leave where did he go? In OUR school when a student is asked to leave a class for disciplinary reasons, they are sent to the vice principal of discipline and either disciplined or sent back to class.

Some states disagree, and specifically give students extra protection under state law and state constitutions.

 

[Madeline]

Student's have no, and indeed can not have the complete freedom of speech that we enjoy while they are in school. Hell, teachers in fact do not have such freedom. It's not conducive to a good educational environment.

Now in THIS particular situation, I have a few questions. How far did things progress before the student was asked to leave the class, and once asked to leave where did he go? In OUR school when a student is asked to leave a class for disciplinary reasons, they are sent to the vice principal of discipline and either disciplined or sent back to class.

Some states disagree, and specifically give students extra protection under state law and state constitutions.

Link, Quantum Windbag?

 

[chanel]

There are several reasons why violations of student rights are upheld by the courts. One of the most basic reasons is known as in loco parentis. This Latin phrase basically means that while a student is in the custody of a school, the school can and often should act as a parent. In this duty of the school, many decisions can be made that are outside the normal governmental purview. The other basic reason for violation of student rights has to do with the goal of school — to educate. If an act of a student can interfere with the educational process, that act may, in many cases, be suppressed.

The Supreme Court said in Tinker that "[If] conduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason — whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior — materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech." This is the hinge upon which many cases turn when a school violates a student's free speech protections.

In Bethel School v Fraser (478 US 675 [1986]), the Court ruled that a school was not violating a students rights when it suspended a student for the use of crude language in a speech to a school assembly. Said the Court: "It does not follow ... that simply because the use of an offensive form of expression may not be prohibited to adults making what the speaker considers a political point, the same latitude must be permitted to children in a public school... The determination of what manner of speech in the classroom or in school assembly is inappropriate properly rests with the school board."

Constitutional Topic: Student Rights - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Like I said before, we don't know why the teacher decided to send this kid out. And we never will, because adults are not permitted to discuss minors outside of school. He used his better judgment. Perhaps he over-reacted (which I have a feeling he didn't) but, that is certainly not worth a day's pay.

If teachers in that district or state think they will lose wages for something like this, chances are these students will be empowered to say whatever.

Are the statements: "homosexuals will go to hell" or "blacks are inferior" opinions? Certainly. But let them try saying that in the workplace. They will be asked to leave as well. Permanently.

 

[jillian]

They do in California, where this occurred.

From the OP:



Michigan high school teacher ....

you know how it is, "facts don't matter", right?


good for the teacher for standing up to the kid... .although I wonder if there wasn't a way to teach the kid how misguided he is.

oh wait... had the teacher done that he'd have been fired.

 

[chanel]

Chances are this teacher knows this student well and teaching him how misguided he is would be an exercise in futility. Sending him out may have prevented a much bigger incident. Trust me I know.

 

[jillian]

Chances are this teacher knows this student well and teaching him how misguided he is would be an exercise in futility. Sending him out may have prevented a much bigger incident. Trust me I know.

probably true...

but it's a shame... parents need to stop teaching their children to hate. at least they should teach them to be respectful.

 

[Ravi]

On Oct. 20, McDowell told a student in his classroom to remove a belt buckle with the Confederate Flag, the symbol of the southern confederacy that seceded from the United States over slavery, kicking off the Civil War in the 1860s.
She complied, but it prompted a question from a boy about how the flag differs from the rainbow flag, a symbol of pride for the gay community.
"I explained the difference between the flags, and he said, 'I don't accept gays,''' said McDowell, 42, who was wearing a shirt with an anti-gay bullying message.
McDowell said he told the student he couldn't say that in class.
"And he said, 'Why? I don't accept gays. It's against my religion.' I reiterated that it's not appropriate to say something like that in class,'' McDowell said Monday.
McDowell said he sent the boy out of the room for a one-day class suspension. Another boy asked if he also could leave because he also didn't accept gays.


Teacher Suspended For Ejecting Student Over Anti-Gay Remark : NPR

 

[bodecea]

They do in California, where this occurred.

Detroit, California?

My mistake.

A similar incident happened in California this week.

Got a link to it? Would love to read up on it and compare.

 

[bodecea]

Soon it will be a hate crime to refuse to have sex with a homosexual

Yeah...I'm sure that's there this is leading....

 

[Granny]

A lot of things need to be changed - taking personal responsibility on the part of everyone to do their job - parents, students, teachers alike being at the top of the list.

Politics - in particular political bias - should be banned from the educational system period. It's the parents' responsibility to teach moral, ethical, religious and political leanings to their children - not the state.

People in general need to understand and practice moderation instead of taking "zero tolerance" to over the cliff extremes. Some of these decisions made by teachers, principals, schools, and school boards are positively inane.

Teachers should be able to teach instead of playing referee in the classroom. Teachers should not have to worry about whether "today" is the day they get the hell beaten out of them or worse. Education should be about education.

And all of that goes right back to taking personal responsibility.

Actually, taking personal responsibility would be a good thing for all people.

 

[manifold]

On Oct. 20, McDowell told a student in his classroom to remove a belt buckle with the Confederate Flag, the symbol of the southern confederacy that seceded from the United States over slavery, kicking off the Civil War in the 1860s.
She complied, but it prompted a question from a boy about how the flag differs from the rainbow flag, a symbol of pride for the gay community.
"I explained the difference between the flags, and he said, 'I don't accept gays,''' said McDowell, 42, who was wearing a shirt with an anti-gay bullying message.
McDowell said he told the student he couldn't say that in class.
"And he said, 'Why? I don't accept gays. It's against my religion.' I reiterated that it's not appropriate to say something like that in class,'' McDowell said Monday.
McDowell said he sent the boy out of the room for a one-day class suspension. Another boy asked if he also could leave because he also didn't accept gays.


Teacher Suspended For Ejecting Student Over Anti-Gay Remark : NPR

Based on that account I'd have to say that the teacher overreacted.

 

[manifold]

The teacher's sexual orientation isn't mentioned in any articles I've found, but I'd wager a pretty penny that he is homosexual himself.

 

[Ravi]

It seems kind of weird to me that a teacher could wear a political shirt to school.

 

[Ravi]

And lol on this kid: Another boy asked if he also could leave because he also didn't accept gays.