Ethical Analogy Regarding Immigration

Agnapostate

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The utilitarian philosopher Peter Singer has constructed an interesting analogy for the purpose of illustrating the costs and benefits of accepting immigrants into another country. His scenario involves a nuclear fallout in the Middle East that severely endangers and sickens those exposed to it. Only those who are in fallout shelters can expect to live in a reasonably healthy manner. Those who were farsighted enough to predict the nuclear conflagration in the Middle East, having observed previous international conflicts, have purchased accommodations in the fallout shelters. Each shelter can accommodate about 10,000 people for 20 years, and have elaborate and sophisticated security systems that allow them to admit whosoever they choose and prevent others from entering. Now suppose that word came that the effects of the nuclear fallout would not last as long as was initially anticipated, and will instead last from eight to ten years. Above-ground, a mass of about 10,000 people have gathered pleading to be allowed inside a certain shelter. The 10,000 could be accommodated since the shelter for the 8 to 10 years since the supplies were initially supposed to last for 20 years, and only half would be used should the original 10,000 be the only inhabitants. However, it should be noted that the shelter was designed to function as a luxury retreat when not used for a real emergency, and the current inhabitants are making full use of the tennis courts and swimming pools contained therein. If the 10,000 outsiders were to be permitted inside, the tennis courts and the swimming pools could no longer be used for their intended purpose, as they would instead function as accommodations for the outsiders. However, if the 10,000 are not permitted to enter, they will live a wretched existence above-ground. Many will starve to death, or suffer from excruciating disease and eventually wither away. Would you hold that the 10,000 ought to be permitted inside the shelter, even though they have no "property rights" claim to the shelter? I would say so. It is morally unacceptable to deny the 10,000 admittance to the shelter, because of the consideration of marginal utility that must be taken into account. Permitting the outsiders to enter the shelter would incur a far lesser burden of suffering, in terms of duration and intensity, upon the current inhabitants, than would be incurred on the outsiders were they forced to remain above-ground.

If you were to permit the entry of the above-ground victims, I would question why or how one can have a profoundly different opinion on the issue of immigration, especially considering that the analogy represents a worst-case scenario for immigrants. In the analogy, the outsider group intended to represent foreigners was partially responsible for their own plight because they did not invest wisely. In American society, Mexican immigrants (the majority group), are not directly responsible for their plight in the same manner. Quite the opposite, in fact. The trade treaty that forced them to relocate because of the destabilization of the Mexican economy, (the North American Free Trade Agreement), was passed against their will. It was the callous decisions made by governmental authorities, including American governmental authorities, that forced them to relocate. Moreover, we are assuming that the outsiders will cause at least some degree of suffering to the shelter inhabitants, even if the marginal utility of their suffering pales when compared to that of the outsiders if forced to remain above-ground. As I have attempted to demonstrate with the statistics that I have cited in the other thread that I started in this forum, the very opposite is arguably true. The immigrants may bring increased happiness rather than increased suffering. We also held that the immigrants had no legitimate "property right" whatsoever to the underground shelter. This is untrue in the case of Mexican immigrants descended from indigenous tribes. They have been robbed of their right to land inheritance by past generations. In the same vein, if Jim's grandfather were to steal something from John's grandfather and pass it down to Jim, the fact that Jim had not personally stolen it would not change the fact that the possession should righfully belong to John. This is true for Mexican immigrants both in the sense that their land was stolen from them in the course of European conquest, and in the course of broken promises of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

Hence, while considering these additional factors, the denial of the right to emigrate seems especially unjust and brutal, an addition of insult to injury, and it is difficult to conceptualize how any morally just person could oppose it.
 
OR...one could apply the lifeboat analogy.

Once the lifeboat is at capacity, bringing additional people in the save them only dooms then all.

OR one could use the fire exit analogy for the USA and I think that is more fitting.

The fire exit can only accomodate so many people going though it at one time.

If too many people try to jam though it, nobody gets through it.

I believe that the USA actually already takes in more legal immigrants that the REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED.

Given that, suggesting that Americans are being selfish by objecting to tens of millions of illegals coming into our nation is what?

It's kneejerking anti-American.

This nation can absorb a lot of immigrants but it cannot absorb them ALL.

The solution isn't to bring immigrants into America, it's to help those nation from which they are fleeing to become properous enough that they don't need to come here.

Do the math and realize that if we destroy our own nation's economy to save a few immigrants, we are actually doing a disservice to those people who do not come here.

The birth rate of the third world exceeeds our capacity to save them.
 
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Nobody claimed that they ought to absorb them all, least of all me. They should only absorb as many as will result in the greatest utility maximization for all involved.
 
Nobody claimed that they ought to absorb them all, least of all me. They should only absorb as many as will result in the greatest utility maximization for all involved.

No agument there. American does well bringing legal immigrants to our shores.

And the legal immigrants we do bring on board ARE that utility maximization number.
 
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No agument there. American does well bringing legal immigrants to our shores.

And the legal immigrants we do bring on board ARE that utility maximization number.

I would dispute the claim that total utility maximization is brought about by the current number of immigrants that enter the country. Jeremy Bentham's system of felicific calculus defines a method of determining basic utility maximization, and even operating under the assumption that the presence of illegal immigrants was a negative factor, (the validity of which I addressed in the other thread), the intensity, duration, propinquity, fecundity, purity, and extent of the suffering inflicted upon illegal immigrants who experience deportation to poor and squalid conditions would exceed that of Americans who would suffer certain financial losses, the vast majority of them not crippling.

Many legal immigrants who are permitted entry are permitted on the basis that the United States government is in a state of enmity with the government of their respective countries of origin and not out of any concern for their well-being or the general prospect of utility maximization. For instance, simply considering the massively different cases of Cubans approaching the southern coast a few years back and Haitians doing the same at the same time, Cubans were granted instant entry, (and still are), because of the United States' opposition to Fidel Castro, whereas Haitians were returned to Haiti because of the United States' friendliness with Duvalier.
 
The United States gets to decide who is legal and who is not and for whatever reason. As do all other countries.. unless you can name a country that lets millions in without asking question??? It would be interesting..
 
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The United States gets to decide who is legal and who is not and for whatever reason. As do all other countries.. unless you can name a country that lets millions in without asking question??? It would be interesting..

Is there a reason you think that I believe that this state of ethical affairs applies only to the United States? I focus primarily on the United States because I am a citizen of the United States, and whatever little and scarce usefulness I provide is greatest there.
 
I would dispute the claim that total utility maximization is brought about by the current number of immigrants that enter the country. Jeremy Bentham's system of felicific calculus defines a method of determining basic utility maximization, and even operating under the assumption that the presence of illegal immigrants was a negative factor, (the validity of which I addressed in the other thread), the intensity, duration, propinquity, fecundity, purity, and extent of the suffering inflicted upon illegal immigrants who experience deportation to poor and squalid conditions would exceed that of Americans who would suffer certain financial losses, the vast majority of them not crippling.

Sophism? I'm impressed

Until you can quantify "intensity, duration, propinquity, fecundity, purity" in some meaningful way as it applies to this issue, Jeremy Bentham's system of felicific calculus is just an interesting philosophical approach to governance.

Many legal immigrants who are permitted entry are permitted on the basis that the United States government is in a state of enmity with the government of their respective countries of origin and not out of any concern for their well-being or the general prospect of utility maximization.

Some, but not a whole lot are.

Most legal immigrants are here because they bring something to the table that we need.

For instance, simply considering the massively different cases of Cubans approaching the southern coast a few years back and Haitians doing the same at the same time, Cubans were granted instant entry, (and still are), because of the United States' opposition to Fidel Castro, whereas Haitians were returned to Haiti because of the United States' friendliness with Duvalier.

Excellent example to make your argument, but a single swallow does not a summer make.

For years and years we objected to the Chinese Communists, but we didn't open our doors to all the Chinese who wanted in, did we?

And we love other nations, and we still do not open the doors to every applicant of those nations, either.

My point is there isn't the consistency of practice to suppose that we have a pattern of rational decision making on who gets in and who doesn't.

Even if we did, that still doesn't make the case for opening the borders to every person who can reach our shores.

I love hot dogs.

But if I eat 200 of them in one sitting they'll still make me sick.
 
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The utilitarian philosopher Peter Singer has constructed an interesting analogy for the purpose of illustrating the costs and benefits of accepting immigrants into another country. His scenario involves a nuclear fallout in the Middle East that severely endangers and sickens those exposed to it. Only those who are in fallout shelters can expect to live in a reasonably healthy manner. Those who were farsighted enough to predict the nuclear conflagration in the Middle East, having observed previous international conflicts, have purchased accommodations in the fallout shelters. Each shelter can accommodate about 10,000 people for 20 years, and have elaborate and sophisticated security systems that allow them to admit whosoever they choose and prevent others from entering. Now suppose that word came that the effects of the nuclear fallout would not last as long as was initially anticipated, and will instead last from eight to ten years. Above-ground, a mass of about 10,000 people have gathered pleading to be allowed inside a certain shelter. The 10,000 could be accommodated since the shelter for the 8 to 10 years since the supplies were initially supposed to last for 20 years, and only half would be used should the original 10,000 be the only inhabitants. However, it should be noted that the shelter was designed to function as a luxury retreat when not used for a real emergency, and the current inhabitants are making full use of the tennis courts and swimming pools contained therein. If the 10,000 outsiders were to be permitted inside, the tennis courts and the swimming pools could no longer be used for their intended purpose, as they would instead function as accommodations for the outsiders. However, if the 10,000 are not permitted to enter, they will live a wretched existence above-ground. Many will starve to death, or suffer from excruciating disease and eventually wither away. Would you hold that the 10,000 ought to be permitted inside the shelter, even though they have no "property rights" claim to the shelter? I would say so. It is morally unacceptable to deny the 10,000 admittance to the shelter, because of the consideration of marginal utility that must be taken into account. Permitting the outsiders to enter the shelter would incur a far lesser burden of suffering, in terms of duration and intensity, upon the current inhabitants, than would be incurred on the outsiders were they forced to remain above-ground.

If you were to permit the entry of the above-ground victims, I would question why or how one can have a profoundly different opinion on the issue of immigration, especially considering that the analogy represents a worst-case scenario for immigrants. In the analogy, the outsider group intended to represent foreigners was partially responsible for their own plight because they did not invest wisely. In American society, Mexican immigrants (the majority group), are not directly responsible for their plight in the same manner. Quite the opposite, in fact. The trade treaty that forced them to relocate because of the destabilization of the Mexican economy, (the North American Free Trade Agreement), was passed against their will. It was the callous decisions made by governmental authorities, including American governmental authorities, that forced them to relocate. Moreover, we are assuming that the outsiders will cause at least some degree of suffering to the shelter inhabitants, even if the marginal utility of their suffering pales when compared to that of the outsiders if forced to remain above-ground. As I have attempted to demonstrate with the statistics that I have cited in the other thread that I started in this forum, the very opposite is arguably true. The immigrants may bring increased happiness rather than increased suffering. We also held that the immigrants had no legitimate "property right" whatsoever to the underground shelter. This is untrue in the case of Mexican immigrants descended from indigenous tribes. They have been robbed of their right to land inheritance by past generations. In the same vein, if Jim's grandfather were to steal something from John's grandfather and pass it down to Jim, the fact that Jim had not personally stolen it would not change the fact that the possession should righfully belong to John. This is true for Mexican immigrants both in the sense that their land was stolen from them in the course of European conquest, and in the course of broken promises of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

Hence, while considering these additional factors, the denial of the right to emigrate seems especially unjust and brutal, an addition of insult to injury, and it is difficult to conceptualize how any morally just person could oppose it.

Way back before NAFTA passed, the biggest demonstration in favor of it took place in Mexico city. The Mexicans had big signs "What are Americans afraid of".

We KNEW NAFTA was a bad deal. Our government passed it anyway and stupid people bought that demo in mexico city so now I can't buy the idea that all those mexicans were against NAFTA. The truth is that they were in favor of it until it went into effect and did exactly what I knew it would do.

When Clinton signed welfare reform, the biggest demonstration against that took place in Mexico city too.

We permit more people into this country legally every year than all the other nations combined.

Your argument doesn't hold water when it comes to the illegals who snuck in, in fact, it's quite the opposite. we've already let the 10,000 in that the shelter can handle but another 10,000 snuck in with them and now we are running out of supplies.
 
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We permit more people into this country legally every year than all the other nations combined.

That bears repeating, folks.

Few people in the world truly understand that fact, while they're lecturing we Americans about how ethnocentric we are.

One out of eight people living in America are foreign born, not including the illegals.
 
The reason that I never posted a reply to this is because I typed something out, and my browser froze and closed, and my response went with it. So I've overcome my initial rage and hostility toward replying to this all over again, and will do so soon.
 
Accepting illegal immigrants is not healthy for our society especially at a time when we are at war with terrorism. Not only does it pose a threat to our national security but it takes away from American employment opportunities. I hate when liberals make the argument that they do jobs Americans don't want to do. That is complete b.s. You are not going to turn down a job that you need to survive because you don't want to do it, if that is the case then our citizens have gotten pretty pathetic. Illegal immigrants also have been committing crimes against us. Last night there was a story on Hannity's America about an illegal immigrant who murdered an American teenager. What's even more disturbing is that he was released from jail the day before after being arrested for carrying an illegal fire arm. Why wasn't he deported when he was caught the first time? America can not take in these illegal immigrants simply because they don't like it in their own countries.
 
now,, we can't send them home,, that' silly to think that,, we have them say hello to your 30 million new Americans,, and all the ones to follow,, Chinese are cool cool people..
 
I will admit I am not that knowledgeable about how people coverd in radioactive fallout can contaminate others. But off the top of my head I would have to say. All those people who are glowing, infected with radiation. I would not let in. Now concerning illegal immigration the life boat theroy is more on the mark. Oldie but a goodie.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ]YouTube - Immigration Gumballs[/ame]
 
Didn't Mr Utilitarian, Agnost, get himself banned? Are you thinking what I am thinking? There is no ethics in defending illegal aliens? Ethics, were art thou? Illegals ignore ethics and it begs the question: WHO THE HELL USES ETHICS TO DEFEND THEM? Agnost, that's who.
 
How's that workin' 4 ya, Aggy? Ja know, inanity is one thing, but trying to excuse irrationally by being irrational, well there's, a real conundrum. Illegals are spiffy because YOU don't mind or YOU like them? That isn't a reason. That, bub, is all ya got. You LOVE them, and yer searching for excuses. It is showing. You are biased on the issue, I neither love or hate them.For me, it's real and it's about more than theory or abstractions. Whens the last time some Wetter threatened to kill you because they were publicly intoxicated, playing loud musica and were parked illegaly, and the police gave warned them TWICE? And they blame YOU because yer white? That, bubba, is the type of crap I deal with daily. You, it's some kind of wet dream for liberals with no life. Wake up. It isn't a dream. Tell me, about all the ethics and all that, do 2 wrongs make a right? Like, 12 million illegal aliens can pick and choose what laws to follow and what they can ignore? Is that all that "ethics" mean anymore?
 
The utilitarian philosopher Peter Singer has constructed an interesting analogy for the purpose of illustrating the costs and benefits of accepting immigrants into another country. His scenario involves a nuclear fallout in the Middle East that severely endangers and sickens those exposed to it. Only those who are in fallout shelters can expect to live in a reasonably healthy manner. Those who were farsighted enough to predict the nuclear conflagration in the Middle East, having observed previous international conflicts, have purchased accommodations in the fallout shelters. Each shelter can accommodate about 10,000 people for 20 years, and have elaborate and sophisticated security systems that allow them to admit whosoever they choose and prevent others from entering. Now suppose that word came that the effects of the nuclear fallout would not last as long as was initially anticipated, and will instead last from eight to ten years. Above-ground, a mass of about 10,000 people have gathered pleading to be allowed inside a certain shelter. The 10,000 could be accommodated since the shelter for the 8 to 10 years since the supplies were initially supposed to last for 20 years, and only half would be used should the original 10,000 be the only inhabitants. However, it should be noted that the shelter was designed to function as a luxury retreat when not used for a real emergency, and the current inhabitants are making full use of the tennis courts and swimming pools contained therein. If the 10,000 outsiders were to be permitted inside, the tennis courts and the swimming pools could no longer be used for their intended purpose, as they would instead function as accommodations for the outsiders. However, if the 10,000 are not permitted to enter, they will live a wretched existence above-ground. Many will starve to death, or suffer from excruciating disease and eventually wither away. Would you hold that the 10,000 ought to be permitted inside the shelter, even though they have no "property rights" claim to the shelter? I would say so. It is morally unacceptable to deny the 10,000 admittance to the shelter, because of the consideration of marginal utility that must be taken into account. Permitting the outsiders to enter the shelter would incur a far lesser burden of suffering, in terms of duration and intensity, upon the current inhabitants, than would be incurred on the outsiders were they forced to remain above-ground.

If you were to permit the entry of the above-ground victims, I would question why or how one can have a profoundly different opinion on the issue of immigration, especially considering that the analogy represents a worst-case scenario for immigrants. In the analogy, the outsider group intended to represent foreigners was partially responsible for their own plight because they did not invest wisely. In American society, Mexican immigrants (the majority group), are not directly responsible for their plight in the same manner. Quite the opposite, in fact. The trade treaty that forced them to relocate because of the destabilization of the Mexican economy, (the North American Free Trade Agreement), was passed against their will. It was the callous decisions made by governmental authorities, including American governmental authorities, that forced them to relocate. Moreover, we are assuming that the outsiders will cause at least some degree of suffering to the shelter inhabitants, even if the marginal utility of their suffering pales when compared to that of the outsiders if forced to remain above-ground. As I have attempted to demonstrate with the statistics that I have cited in the other thread that I started in this forum, the very opposite is arguably true. The immigrants may bring increased happiness rather than increased suffering. We also held that the immigrants had no legitimate "property right" whatsoever to the underground shelter. This is untrue in the case of Mexican immigrants descended from indigenous tribes. They have been robbed of their right to land inheritance by past generations. In the same vein, if Jim's grandfather were to steal something from John's grandfather and pass it down to Jim, the fact that Jim had not personally stolen it would not change the fact that the possession should righfully belong to John. This is true for Mexican immigrants both in the sense that their land was stolen from them in the course of European conquest, and in the course of broken promises of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

Hence, while considering these additional factors, the denial of the right to emigrate seems especially unjust and brutal, an addition of insult to injury, and it is difficult to conceptualize how any morally just person could oppose it.

Okay, how about a real scenario.....Mexico has more natural resources than the USA, yet they are coming here in droves using up our already limited resources. In 2006 there was a study done that said the state of Washington, at the current rate of population growth, would run out of water in 10 years. Still we have mass migration of people from all over the world. What happens when we run out of water? What will California do considering they count on a lot of our water?

IOW in your scenario, the shelter is already passed capacity and more are coming in, endangering the lives of EVERYONE. Worse, those new people coming in have their own shelters, but they don't like the way they are being run, so they are using up our limited resources instead of fixing up their own shelters. As we run out of resources, they will return to their badly run shelters, but those shelters won't let us follow. Nope, we are going to die because of our kindness.
 
Do not even have to think about this...those 10,000 people above ground are going to die. Illegal Aliens have no right to be here, and much the same as your analogy, are negatively impacting our American way of life...what ICE needs to do, is put a bounty on the heads of Illegal Aliens, pass E Verify, and increase work place enforcement...those three steps, and you would be surprised how fast illegal aliens would start self deporting. Let them go build their own fallout shelter SOUTH OF THE BORDER.
 
TIC. I too enjoy thought experiments but the problem mentioned here is often solved by time. Remember Malthus, or Marx, Jesus, or MLK or ??? all smart guys and while they were speculating on the future, the future arrived in a different manner. Malthus didn't foresee prosperity brought negative numbers, oh, if only everyone were prosperous, Marx grew into libertarianism, once the chains of government fall to the wayside, freedom will bring material utopia, Jesus forgot the OT and the love feast went off track, and Martin would still recognize the inner city but I'm sure Barack would make him smile. And while living children die every few seconds and murder and mayhem are still in plenty, immigration will keep cabs running in NY and clean houses in NJ and strange ballot initiatives in CA and fruit picked on time in FL, but once we are all prosperous, oh boy, will things be bad then, that is if we don't blow ourselves to kingdom come or thereabouts. Please stay, please, who will clean my house.....

"Human beings will be happier — not when they cure cancer or get to Mars or eliminate racial prejudice or flush Lake Erie — but when they find ways to inhabit primitive communities again. That’s my utopia." Kurt Vonnegut,
 
Apparently only Rich gringos worry about ethics. And damned of they don't like to apply ethics to excuse violating them. They have so many reasons to excuse being unreasonable. All illegal aliens have to do....Is immigrate legally. But, y'all just come up up with more intellectualized versions of the same crap, excusing illegal aliens. You are saying that two wrongs make a right. Based on nothing more than your rich Anglo elitist privileged expectations that YOU are always right, and you have some fucking right to exploit or excuse the abuse of the poor because of your genetics or your little upper class status. And illegal aliens aren't white, they make the perfect little abuse poster boys for the upper class racist that just love to abuse these poor people for profit. Jesus Christ, and these rich Anglos that post here in support of illegal aliens as if they were some kind of moral iconoclasts fighting the power? YOU are the power, YOU are the power and YOU are the evil at the heart of this issue, you poor deluded shitheads. We have met the enemy, and he is YOU.
 

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