Dying for a nation that's not...

[onedomino]

Again, surrender to whom? Our troops are caught in the middle of a civil war between Shi'ites and Sunnis which is rapidly becoming a proxy-war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. How does one interpret getting our troops out of the middle of this cluster-fuck as surrender? How does getting our troops home where they can actually do the job of Homeland Security constitute surrender? How does ending the wasting of our blood and treasure as a salve to Bush's ego constitute surrender? How does getting our troops out of a situation they never should have been placed in surrender?

Keep drinking the kool-aid.

Of course the answer is that our forced departure will be surrender (call it giving up, capitulation, whatever you like) to the totalitarian forces that will rip up the Iraqi Constitution. You do not seem to care about that. As far as your posts are concerned, it's to hell with the 12 million people that voted in the Iraqi election. You do not seem to care that the barbaric forces we are fighting in Iraq will send women back to the 8th Century. What about them? We already have 3400+ American men and women that have given their lives to help introduce democracy to Iraq, as expressed in its Constitution. You want to blow off that sacrifice and give up to religious fanatics, Iran, Syria, and Al Qaeda? You have already finished the Kool-Aid.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Of course the answer is that our forced departure will be surrender (call it giving up, capitulation, whatever you like) to the totalitarian forces that will rip up the Iraqi Constitution. You do not seem to care about that. As far as your posts are concerned, it's to hell with the 12 million people that voted in the Iraqi election. You do not seem to care that the barbaric forces we are fighting in Iraq will send women back to the 8th Century. What about them? We already have 3400+ American men and women that have given their lives to help introduce democracy to Iraq, as expressed in its Constitution. You want to blow off that sacrifice and give up to religious fanatics, Iran, Syria, and Al Qaeda? You have already finished the Kool-Aid.

The government in Iraq is a Shi'ite dominated, nascent Muslim theocracy, with Muktadah al Sadr as its head. The Iraqi constitution isn't worth the paper its written on. Women are already being subjected to Sharia law. The 3400+ men and women needn't have died had Bush kept his eye on the REAL enemy instead of working off his chubby for Saddam. The reasons given for invading Iraq had little, if anything to do with the introduction of democracy...Remember...WMD's...Smoking gun...Mushroom cloud...? Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq until Bush invaded. With our forces tied up in Iraq, relieving the threat of Saddam on their border, Iran's hand in the region was strengthened. Syria is a secular state, with the Baath party in charge, much as it was in Iraq.

Look at the whole picture instead of eagerly lapping up all of the bullshit spewed by the Bush administration as if it was so much manna from heaven.

 

[Gunny]

<blockquote>Of all the absurdities attending our unending war in Iraq, the greatest is this: We are fighting to defend that which is not there.

We are fighting for a national government that is not national but sectarian, and has shown no capacity to govern. We are training Iraq's security forces to combat sectarian violence though those forces are thoroughly sectarian and have themselves engaged in large-scale sectarian violence. We are fighting for a nonsectarian, pluralistic Iraq, though whatever nonsectarian and pluralistic institutions existed before our invasion have long since been blasted out of existence. In the December 2005 parliamentary elections, the one nonsectarian party, which ran both Shiite and Sunni candidates, won just 8 percent of the vote.

Every day, George W. Bush asks young Americans to die in defense of an Iraq that has ceased to exist (if it ever did) in the hearts and minds of Iraqis. What Iraqis believe in are sectarian or tribal Iraqs -- a Shiite Iraq, a Sunni Iraq, an autonomous Kurdish Iraqi state, an Iraq where Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani or Muqtada al-Sadr or some other chieftain holds sway. - <a href=http://www.sacbee.com/110/story/199777.html>The Sacramento Bee</a> </blockquote>

The Shi'ite led Iraqi 'government' is on vacation for two months while our troops fight and die in Baghdad's streets. Iraqi security forces either don't show up, or show little interest in doing more than settling grudges with Sunni rivals in the areas our troops have cleared. Combined US/Iraqi forces hold 1/3, or fewer, Baghdad neighborhoods. The death toll amongst our troops is already on a pace to outstrip last month's casualties. Yet Bush and his administration fiddle while Baghdad burns.

With more and more retired generals who served on the ground in Iraq, Gen Sanchez being the latest, speaking out against the administration's policy in Iraq. Bush and Co talk of a 50 year presence in Iraq as if that would be the magic sword to cut the Gordian knot that Iraq has become under the leadership (I'm using that term lightly here) of their administration.

Iraqi citizen's don't see a unified Iraq, rather they see it as territories divided between Kurds, Sunnis and Shi'ias and are taking steps on their own to establish those divisions, particularly amongst the Sunnis and Shi'ias, the Kurds are doing fine on their own.

The Bush administration couldn't have foreseen these consequences as they lacked the breadth of vision to actually see the sweep of history in that region, and elsewhere. In their arrogance, they simply assumed that they could go in, take out Hussein and a grateful populace would quickly fall in line behind whatever government was installed. Never mind that it was Saddam Hussein's ruthlessness and brutality that kept these sectarian rivalries at bay.

We have a recent lesson in what happens when a strong-man dictator is removed from the scene abruptly. Remember Yugoslavia? Tito's death gave us the horrors of ethnic cleansing as Serbs and Croats slaughtered each other in an internecine struggle that had been contained by the force of Tito's rule. But history has been but a a minor footnote to Bush and his cronies, they didn't forget history...they simply ignored it. And now, they've repeated it.

Was the government elected using a democratic process?

 

[Chips Rafferty]

When you tell the enemy when you are leaving, before the job is done, so they will have a free hand to do what they want - it is surrender

Has it ever occurred to your cookie-cutter Amerinazi mind that you didn't HAVE (Shit! I better watch the self-appointed Grammar Gestapo doesn't deduct a coverted green square from me for me shouting! ) an Iraqi enemy until you criminally invaded their country (and you can insert a few score more countries here) on trumped up casus belli, you moronic little Dimwit mimic?

I get sick of hearing you rent-a-mind reactionaries talking about having to "stay the distance," "win the war," and make the "enemy" surrender, when you should be profusely apologising to the Iraqi people, paying them any amount of war compensation the say, and getting the fuck out of their country.

Everyone on earth but you John Wayne wannabes knows "the enemy" is ordinary Iraqis, who hate you for what you have done to them, and want you out of Iraq so they can finally settle insane centuries old RELIGIOUS scores that Saddam had well under control.

And now Jesus has told [ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=1bB-Q4ce3m8]The Great Dictator[/ame] he wants Him to invade Iran?? see original And you WASP wankers are hot to trot?!! And you claim you aren't brainwashed from birth by the Bible bangers and Daddy Warbucks?

Gawd fuck me drunk! How many more years are you inveterate boong bashers gonna try to work up enough guts to attack Russia and China by beating up coral atolls and little old Muslim ladies?

Like I keep saying, the American Jesus, and all the genocidal goons who follow him, sure look like Satan to me!

 

[red states rule]

Has it ever occurred to your cookie-cutter Amerinazi mind that you didn't HAVE (Shit! I better watch the self-appointed Grammar Gestapo doesn't deduct a coverted green square from me for me shouting! ) an Iraqi enemy until you criminally invaded their country (and you can insert a few score more countries here) on trumped up casus belli, you moronic little Dimwit mimic?

I get sick of hearing you rent-a-mind reactionaries talking about having to "stay the distance," "win the war," and make the "enemy" surrender, when you should be profusely apologising to the Iraqi people, paying them any amount of war compensation the say, and getting the fuck out of their country.

Everyone on earth but you John Wayne wannabes knows "the enemy" is ordinary Iraqis, who hate you for what you have done to them, and want you out of Iraq so they can finally settle insane centuries old RELIGIOUS scores that Saddam had well under control.

And now Jesus has told The Great Dictator he wants Him to invade Iran?? see original And you WASP wankers are hot to trot?!! And you claim you aren't brainwashed from birth by the Bible bangers and Daddy Warbucks?

Gawd fuck me drunk! How many more years are you inveterate boong bashers gonna try to work up enough guts to attack Russia and China by beating up coral atolls and little old Muslim ladies?

Like I keep saying, the American Jesus, and all the genocidal goons who follow him, sure look like Satan to me!

So you support the surrender of the US to the terrorists as well?

Go to your local Democrat office and get your free white flag to wave proudly at Dem rallies

 

[Chips Rafferty]

So you support the surrender of the US to the terrorists as well?

Go to your local Democrat office and get your free white flag to wave proudly at Dem rallies

...Gave proof thro' the night that RSR was still there

You’ve just gotta have at least half-a-dozen cocks, Redda. Nobody could get that befuddled blowing his brains out the eye of one!

FYI, Australia might be Americas most arse-lickingest ally, but we don’t have the same political system – yet.

Or do you think, as I suspect, that Australia is an actual physical part of the fifty states?

 

[DeadCanDance]

There is no civil war, constantly claiming there is doesn't make it true.

"The Intelligence Community judges that the term “civil war” does not adequately capture the complexity of the conflict in Iraq, which includes extensive Shia-on-Shia violence, al-Qa’ida and Sunni insurgent attacks on Coalition forces, and widespread criminally motivated violence. Nonetheless, the term “civil war” accurately describes key elements of the Iraqi conflict, including the hardening of ethno-sectarian identities, a sea change in the character of the violence, ethno-sectarian mobilization, and population displacements."

--NIE on Iraq, Fall 2006: the American Intelligence Community's collective assessment of Iraq

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20070202_release.pdf


"Iraq is ripped by a low-grade civil war which has worsened to catastrophic levels with as many as 3000 citizens murdered per month. The population is in despair. Life in many of the urban areas is now desperate. A handful of foreign fighter (500+)--and a couple thousand Al Qaeda operatives incite open factional struggle through suicide bombings which target Shia holy places and innocent civilians...The police force is feared as a Shia militia in uniform which is responsible for thousands of extra-judicial killings."

--Retired US Army General Barry McCaffrey, After Action Report for U.S. Central Command, March 2007

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/Iraq After action.pdf



Colin Powell says Iraq in a 'civil war'

--President Bush's former Secretary of State

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/29/powell.iraq/index.html

 

[Gunny]

Has it ever occurred to your cookie-cutter Amerinazi mind that you didn't HAVE (Shit! I better watch the self-appointed Grammar Gestapo doesn't deduct a coverted green square from me for me shouting! ) an Iraqi enemy until you criminally invaded their country (and you can insert a few score more countries here) on trumped up casus belli, you moronic little Dimwit mimic?

Ummm... Saddam Hussein threatened the US every-other-month for 12 years. I'd call THAT an Iraqi enemy.

I get sick of hearing you rent-a-mind reactionaries talking about having to "stay the distance," "win the war," and make the "enemy" surrender, when you should be profusely apologising to the Iraqi people, paying them any amount of war compensation the say, and getting the fuck out of their country.

Noncombatant inhabitants of nations are ALWAYS victims in a war brought on by their leaders, and it was their government and head of state that we took out.

No apology nor compensation required. And as far as compensation goes, their own people have done as much damage as we have.

Everyone on earth but you John Wayne wannabes knows "the enemy" is ordinary Iraqis, who hate you for what you have done to them, and want you out of Iraq so they can finally settle insane centuries old RELIGIOUS scores that Saddam had well under control.

I disagree. The enemy is radical Islam, whom "the people" hate and fear.

Yes, Saddam had them under control. But by what means and at what price?

And now Jesus has told The Great Dictator he wants Him to invade Iran?? see original And you WASP wankers are hot to trot?!! And you claim you aren't brainwashed from birth by the Bible bangers and Daddy Warbucks?

Gawd fuck me drunk! How many more years are you inveterate boong bashers gonna try to work up enough guts to attack Russia and China by beating up coral atolls and little old Muslim ladies?

Fortunately for you and yours, we were successful at "beating up" coral atolls or you'd be doing a lot of bowing and saying "hai hai."

Like I keep saying, the American Jesus, and all the genocidal goons who follow him, sure look like Satan to me!

Jesus was a pacifist. Hardly substantiates your statement.

 

[Gunny]

Of course the answer is that our forced departure will be surrender (call it giving up, capitulation, whatever you like) to the totalitarian forces that will rip up the Iraqi Constitution. You do not seem to care about that. As far as your posts are concerned, it's to hell with the 12 million people that voted in the Iraqi election. You do not seem to care that the barbaric forces we are fighting in Iraq will send women back to the 8th Century. What about them? We already have 3400+ American men and women that have given their lives to help introduce democracy to Iraq, as expressed in its Constitution. You want to blow off that sacrifice and give up to religious fanatics, Iran, Syria, and Al Qaeda? You have already finished the Kool-Aid.

How long do you propose to stay in Iraq? It doesn't matter when we leave really as far as the sectarian violence is concerned. We need to honor our committment to build up Iraqi security forces and leave. Simple as that.

The shia and sunni are going to cut loose when we do regardless what day it is. It's a religious war between two sects of the same religion, and they are going to recognize the authority of the democratically elected government of Iraq about like they recognize the Geneva Convention.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Jesus was a pacifist. Hardly substantiates your statement.

Ummm... Saddam Hussein threatened the US every-other-month for 12 years. I'd call THAT an Iraqi enemy.

First things first. Can you give specific instances where the American made Golem Saddam threatened the US? Excluding rhetorical replies to American threats to him, of course.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

First things first. Can you give specific instances where the American made Golem Saddam threatened the US? Excluding rhetorical replies to American threats to him, of course.

He tried to have a President assassinated, he fired on British and American aircraft every month, he bribed foreign Countries to lift sanctions without meeting the requirements of the Cease Fire. He had operatives try to broker deals with terrorist organizations to strike at the US. He expelled Inspectors on more than one occassion, refused to allow them to do their job and for 4 years refused to let them in the country.

 

[Gunny]

First things first. Can you give specific instances where the American made Golem Saddam threatened the US? Excluding rhetorical replies to American threats to him, of course.

Well yeah ... specifically, I was on day 3 of supposedly 5 days in Phuket, Thailand when he started waving his sword and got my beer-drinking cut short so we could rush right off to Kuwait. He should have been shot for screwing with my liberty and my beer alone ... much less threatening US forces in the ME.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Well yeah ... specifically, I was on day 3 of supposedly 5 days in Phuket, Thailand when he started waving his sword and got my beer-drinking cut short so we could rush right off to Kuwait. He should have been shot for screwing with my liberty and my beer alone ... much less threatening US forces in the ME.

Fair enough. The dirty Arab bastard got his just desserts then!

 

[Chips Rafferty]

He tried to have a President assassinated, he fired on British and American aircraft every month, he bribed foreign Countries to lift sanctions without meeting the requirements of the Cease Fire. He had operatives try to broker deals with terrorist organizations to strike at the US. He expelled Inspectors on more than one occassion, refused to allow them to do their job and for 4 years refused to let them in the country.

C’mon now, Cap'n Underpants, are you trying to belittle my intelligence?

You’re not talking to RSR or some other poor gullible bastard like yourself that robotically accepts WASPington’s pathetic propaganda, ya know!

I couldn’t even be bother demolishing such childish cant.

 

[Gunny]

C’mon now, Cap'n Underpants, are you trying to belittle my intelligence?

You’re not talking to RSR or some other poor gullible bastard like yourself that robotically accepts WASPington’s pathetic propaganda, ya know!

I couldn’t even be bother demolishing such childish cant.

I don't think you can. Each and every one is factually supported.

 

[onedomino]

How long do you propose to stay in Iraq? It doesn't matter when we leave really as far as the sectarian violence is concerned. We need to honor our committment to build up Iraqi security forces and leave. Simple as that.

The shia and sunni are going to cut loose when we do regardless what day it is. It's a religious war between two sects of the same religion, and they are going to recognize the authority of the democratically elected government of Iraq about like they recognize the Geneva Convention.

I disagree, it will make a difference when we leave. We should not leave until the democratically elected government has the strength to defeat the forces that want to destroy the Iraqi Constitution, including Al Qaeda and Sunni and Shiite militias. We especially cannot leave until Iraq can defend its borders against Syria, Turkey, and Iran. If we leave before then, it will result in the ascendance of totalitarian thugs who murdered their way to power. The worst possible outcome.

 

[onedomino]

C’mon now, Cap'n Underpants, are you trying to belittle my intelligence?

Why would he? You do an excellent job of that yourself.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

I don't think you can. Each and every one is factually supported.

Bullshit!

 

[Chips Rafferty]

He tried to have a President assassinated, he fired on British and American aircraft every month, he bribed foreign Countries to lift sanctions without meeting the requirements of the Cease Fire. He had operatives try to broker deals with terrorist organizations to strike at the US. He expelled Inspectors on more than one occassion, refused to allow them to do their job and for 4 years refused to let them in the country.

He tried to have a President assassinated

If Cuba uncovered a plot by America to assassinate Hugo Chavez, who here would credit it?

So why in fuck do you expect me to credit the loathsome Emir of Kuwait, a notorious tyrant and an established lying lickspittle Satrap of the US, uncovering a plot to assassinate George Broccoli Bush?

he fired on British and American aircraft every month,

Hardly surprising when, according to high-ranking U.N. reps and international jurists, America was committing indictable crimes against humanity by calculatingly bombing crucial civilian infrastructure in order to starve Iraqis into deposing Saddam.

The rest of it, except the bribing of American and foreign companies to lift sanctions, is more typical Seppo half truths that even a poor programmed prick like you should be able to see through.

BTW, before you reply, remember the whole world knows that Gulf War One was another put-up Seppo war.