Do We Want Education, Or Not??

PoliticalChic

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Oct 6, 2008
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1. "Sometimes, for the good of the class, a student needs to be removed. Sometimes permanently. While I don’t think anyone disputes this, I am concerned about recent state Legislature efforts to push back on the suspensions of students.

2. Engrossed Second Substitute Senate Bill 5244, approved by the Senate last week, would reduce the number of days students can be excluded from school due to discipline.

a. Do those in favor of the bill understand how damaging just one incorrigible student can be to a classroom?

3. We must be careful about overemphasizing the needs of the few students who have already demonstrated their antipathy toward their own education. The other students have needs, too.






4. No one wants students to be suspended or expelled. No one wants people to go to jail, either. Sometimes, that’s the only option that remains.

5. The U.S. Department of Education is investigating whether Seattle Public Schools discriminated against African-American students because they are three times as likely to be suspended as white students. The disparity needs to be addressed separately from the Senate bill.






6. I had a student this year. ... hardly ever had a pencil. But he always had a cellphone. He couldn’t stay seated for more than five minutes, and constantly distracted other students by talking or throwing things at them. He would lose assignments the day I gave them, then ask for another copy, only to find the original one the next week, still untouched....He was suspended at least three times in four months.

7. Naturally, all this led to increased conflict with his teachers (hence the suspensions). Bad language, insulting how we look and swearing at us, arguing, refusing to listen, refusing to follow directions. Oh, and he didn’t learn much either.

a. And I had two similar students in the same class. I heard racial epithets more times in four months than I would have heard living in the South in the 1800s.






8. What do schools do with students like this? ...meetings ...Talks ... Dialogues with special-education experts, nurses, counselors, mental-health specialists and tutors. We have full-time employees devoted just to them, the bottom 5 percent. ...we usually send work home during longer suspensions. In 12 years, I have never had a student do any of it.

9. How much opportunity do we owe students like him, at the expense of the other 25? Don’t they deserve a conflict-free, respectful classroom that focuses on learning?

10. We live in a country filled to the brim with resources for learning, both in and out of the school building. A time must come when the right to a free education is lost. We don’t owe them any more than we are wearing ourselves thin already giving them."
Op-ed: For the good of a class, student suspensions are needed | Opinion | The Seattle Times
 
I've always been in favor of expulsion when other methods of discipline won't bring a true trouble child in line. Nothing will make a parent wake up and realize there is a discipline problem quite like having their little Timmy home from school for the rest of the year.

I think the only real question here should be what merits suspension. I've heard of a few "bad apples" where a Principal steps up to the plate and suspends a student without valid cause. A lot of the Jena 6 case, IIRC correctly, spun out of students complaining that school suspensions were unfairly applied. If the school has a clear cut criteria for suspension and a clear and open process, it ought to be ok.
 
I've always been in favor of expulsion when other methods of discipline won't bring a true trouble child in line. Nothing will make a parent wake up and realize there is a discipline problem quite like having their little Timmy home from school for the rest of the year.

I think the only real question here should be what merits suspension. I've heard of a few "bad apples" where a Principal steps up to the plate and suspends a student without valid cause. A lot of the Jena 6 case, IIRC correctly, spun out of students complaining that school suspensions were unfairly applied. If the school has a clear cut criteria for suspension and a clear and open process, it ought to be ok.

The teacher who wrote the OP mentioned specific behaviors.

Do you have a framework that would result in a student

a. being suspended

b. being expelled.



How about the kind of behaviors that would result in arrest outside of school....I've read that many schools and school administrators feel that it is against protocol to call police.
 
I don't think we do anymore really, we are just running through the motions. For most school is just a place to send your kids to while you are at work, nothing more nothing less.
 
I don't think we do anymore really, we are just running through the motions. For most school is just a place to send your kids to while you are at work, nothing more nothing less.

On Wednesday, June 6, 1928 the Oxford English Dictionary was completed. In "The Meaning of Everything," Simon Winchester discussed the English of the time as follows:

“The English establishment of the day might be rightly derided at this remove as having been class-ridden and imperialist, bombastic and blimpish, racist and insouciant- but it was marked undeniably also by a sweeping erudition and confidence, and it was peopled by men and women who felt they were able to know all, to understand much, and in consequence to radiate the wisdom of deep learning.”


Knowledge is power....and we have squandered our power.
 
I don't think we do anymore really, we are just running through the motions. For most school is just a place to send your kids to while you are at work, nothing more nothing less.

On Wednesday, June 6, 1928 the Oxford English Dictionary was completed. In "The Meaning of Everything," Simon Winchester discussed the English of the time as follows:

“The English establishment of the day might be rightly derided at this remove as having been class-ridden and imperialist, bombastic and blimpish, racist and insouciant- but it was marked undeniably also by a sweeping erudition and confidence, and it was peopled by men and women who felt they were able to know all, to understand much, and in consequence to radiate the wisdom of deep learning.”


Knowledge is power....and we have squandered our power.
That could be amended if we could inspire our children to be students at home as well. A friend of mine, now passed, told me of her childhood when her farm and rancher parents made her do the math of chickens, how many pounds of chicken feed to put in the feeders for 150 chickens, how many chicks hatched, how to calculate how much barbed wire to buy for the west range of the ranch, and just about everything else, including how much money to take to the store to buy 15 pounds of sugar and a 25-pound sack of flour, etc. She was a whiz, and it was a trip to go shopping with her, telling the clerk behind a computer to the penny how much her purchase would be with tax included. lol

We could also extend their vocabulary by giving them challenges above their grade level.
 
I don't think we do anymore really, we are just running through the motions. For most school is just a place to send your kids to while you are at work, nothing more nothing less.

On Wednesday, June 6, 1928 the Oxford English Dictionary was completed. In "The Meaning of Everything," Simon Winchester discussed the English of the time as follows:

“The English establishment of the day might be rightly derided at this remove as having been class-ridden and imperialist, bombastic and blimpish, racist and insouciant- but it was marked undeniably also by a sweeping erudition and confidence, and it was peopled by men and women who felt they were able to know all, to understand much, and in consequence to radiate the wisdom of deep learning.”


Knowledge is power....and we have squandered our power.
That could be amended if we could inspire our children to be students at home as well. A friend of mine, now passed, told me of her childhood when her farm and rancher parents made her do the math of chickens, how many pounds of chicken feed to put in the feeders for 150 chickens, how many chicks hatched, how to calculate how much barbed wire to buy for the west range of the ranch, and just about everything else, including how much money to take to the store to buy 15 pounds of sugar and a 25-pound sack of flour, etc. She was a whiz, and it was a trip to go shopping with her, telling the clerk behind a computer to the penny how much her purchase would be with tax included. lol

We could also extend their vocabulary by giving them challenges above their grade level.

Funny that you should mention this particular discipline....I purchased a 'mental math' DVD, and the family was sitting around 10 minutes ago practicing multiplying two and three digit numbers....

But I wonder if we could do this nation-wide.
 
None of this would be a problem were it not for the government monopoly on affordable education. A private school would handle this situation to your satisfaction and if not, you could choose another school.

No consumer choice and no competition always results in skyrocketing costs and crappy results. Central planners do NOT know what's best for your family. Get the government out of the business of education!
 
1. "Sometimes, for the good of the class, a student needs to be removed. Sometimes permanently. While I don’t think anyone disputes this, I am concerned about recent state Legislature efforts to push back on the suspensions of students.

2. Engrossed Second Substitute Senate Bill 5244, approved by the Senate last week, would reduce the number of days students can be excluded from school due to discipline.

a. Do those in favor of the bill understand how damaging just one incorrigible student can be to a classroom?

3. We must be careful about overemphasizing the needs of the few students who have already demonstrated their antipathy toward their own education. The other students have needs, too.
4. No one wants students to be suspended or expelled. No one wants people to go to jail, either. Sometimes, that’s the
only option that remains.


5. The U.S. Department of Education is investigating whether Seattle Public Schools discriminated against African-American students because they are three times as likely to be suspended as white students. The disparity needs to be addressed separately from the Senate bill.
6. I had a student this year. ... hardly ever had a pencil. But he always had a cellphone. He couldn’t stay seated for more than five minutes, and constantly distracted other students by talking or throwing things at them. He would lose assignments the day I gave them, then ask for another copy, only to find the original one the next week, still untouched....He was suspended at least three times in four months.
7. Naturally, all this led to increased conflict with his teachers (hence the suspensions). Bad language, insulting how we look and swearing at us, arguing, refusing to listen, refusing to follow directions. Oh, and he didn’t learn much either.

a. And I had two similar students in the same class. I heard racial epithets

more times in four months than I would have heard living in the South in the 1800s.
8. What do schools do with students like this? ...meetings ...Talks ... Dialogues with special-education experts, nurses, counselors, mental-health specialists and tutors. We have full-time employees devoted just to them, the bottom 5 percent. ...we usually send work home during longer suspensions. In 12 years, I have never had a student do any of it.
9. How much opportunity do we owe students like him, at the expense of the other 25? Don’t they deserve a conflict-free, respectful classroom that
focuses on learning?

10. We live in a country filled to the brim with resources for learning, both in and out of the school building. A time must come when the right to a free education is lost. We don’t owe them any more than we are wearing ourselves thin already giving them."

Op-ed: For the good of a class, student suspensions are needed | Opinion | The Seattle Times

I agree that the needs of the class should take precedence over the needs of one or two disruptive students. In reality, there is very little teachers can actually do as a response to students' misbehavior. Administrators often label teachers as incompetent if they send students to the office. Students can't be kept after school due to transportation concerns, and they can't be kept after class as that is unfair to their next teacher and interrupts a student's education. Students can't be put outside the door as they must be under the teacher's supervision. Academic assignments can't be used as punishment. When a teacher tries to discuss misbehavior with a parent, she often hears: "When my child is in school he is your responsibilty." (Can the teacher take away his driving privileges?)
I believe the in-school suspension is a good solution as students can work on school assignments in a restricted environment under supervision. Many students consider out-of-school suspension as a vacation, and they rarely make up the assignments they missed. I believe each student is entitled to
1/30th of teacher time and energy, and it is unfair when a disruptive student dominates these resources.
 
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1. "Sometimes, for the good of the class, a student needs to be removed. Sometimes permanently. While I don’t think anyone disputes this, I am concerned about recent state Legislature efforts to push back on the suspensions of students.

2. Engrossed Second Substitute Senate Bill 5244, approved by the Senate last week, would reduce the number of days students can be excluded from school due to discipline.

a. Do those in favor of the bill understand how damaging just one incorrigible student can be to a classroom?

3. We must be careful about overemphasizing the needs of the few students who have already demonstrated their antipathy toward their own education. The other students have needs, too.
4. No one wants students to be suspended or expelled. No one wants people to go to jail, either. Sometimes, that’s the
only option that remains.


5. The U.S. Department of Education is investigating whether Seattle Public Schools discriminated against African-American students because they are three times as likely to be suspended as white students. The disparity needs to be addressed separately from the Senate bill.
6. I had a student this year. ... hardly ever had a pencil. But he always had a cellphone. He couldn’t stay seated for more than five minutes, and constantly distracted other students by talking or throwing things at them. He would lose assignments the day I gave them, then ask for another copy, only to find the original one the next week, still untouched....He was suspended at least three times in four months.
7. Naturally, all this led to increased conflict with his teachers (hence the suspensions). Bad language, insulting how we look and swearing at us, arguing, refusing to listen, refusing to follow directions. Oh, and he didn’t learn much either.

a. And I had two similar students in the same class. I heard racial epithets

more times in four months than I would have heard living in the South in the 1800s.
8. What do schools do with students like this? ...meetings ...Talks ... Dialogues with special-education experts, nurses, counselors, mental-health specialists and tutors. We have full-time employees devoted just to them, the bottom 5 percent. ...we usually send work home during longer suspensions. In 12 years, I have never had a student do any of it.
9. How much opportunity do we owe students like him, at the expense of the other 25? Don’t they deserve a conflict-free, respectful classroom that
focuses on learning?

10. We live in a country filled to the brim with resources for learning, both in and out of the school building. A time must come when the right to a free education is lost. We don’t owe them any more than we are wearing ourselves thin already giving them."

Op-ed: For the good of a class, student suspensions are needed | Opinion | The Seattle Times

I agree that the needs of the class should take precedence over the needs of one or two disruptive students. In reality, there is very little teachers can actually do as a response to students' misbehavior. Administrators often label teachers as incompetent if they send students to the office. Students can't be kept after school due to transportation concerns, and they can't be kept after class as that is unfair to their next teacher and interrupts a student's education. Students can't be put outside the door as they must be under the teacher's supervision. Academic assignments can't be used as punishment. When a teacher tries to discuss misbehavior with a parent, she often hears: "When my child is in school he is your responsibilty." (Can the teacher take away his driving privileges?)
I believe the in-school suspension is a good solution as students can work on school assignments in a restricted environment under supervision. Many students consider out-of-school suspension as a vacation, and they rarely make up the assignments they missed. I believe each student is entitled to
1/30th of teacher time and energy, and it is unfair when a disruptive student dominates these resources.



Exactly what I've heard from friends who are teachers.
 
None of this would be a problem were it not for the government monopoly on affordable education. A private school would handle this situation to your satisfaction and if not, you could choose another school.

No consumer choice and no competition always results in skyrocketing costs and crappy results. Central planners do NOT know what's best for your family. Get the government out of the business of education!

We need vouchers, a G.I. Bill for kids.
 
None of this would be a problem were it not for the government monopoly on affordable education. A private school would handle this situation to your satisfaction and if not, you could choose another school.

No consumer choice and no competition always results in skyrocketing costs and crappy results. Central planners do NOT know what's best for your family. Get the government out of the business of education!

We need vouchers, a G.I. Bill for kids.

I have no problem with a state putting into place a voucher system to help poor families pay for their education. As long as you have CHOICE and COMPETITION, the market will produce superior results.

However, having government RUN the entire affordable education system, from what's in the text books to how many tater tots get served at lunch is wrongheaded, evidenced by costs that far outpace the overall rate of inflation and consistently shitty results.
 
How about the kind of behaviors that would result in arrest outside of school....I've read that many schools and school administrators feel that it is against protocol to call police.

Those should certainly warrant a hearing for expulsion, and to be honest, if a student commits a felony outside the school hours, that should be grounds for expulsion too.
 
How about the kind of behaviors that would result in arrest outside of school....I've read that many schools and school administrators feel that it is against protocol to call police.

Those should certainly warrant a hearing for expulsion, and to be honest, if a student commits a felony outside the school hours, that should be grounds for expulsion too.

In alot of cases its not, most schools these days don't want to get involved. If Little Johnny gets picked up for a B & E outside of the school thats between him and the courts, nothing to do with the school.
 
By Jr. High...there should be a manditory work option for those students who disrupt classes, IMO. Instead of suspending them, put them on a manual labor detail somewhere for about a month or two...maybe even a year. Let them actually experience the kind of drudge hard work that is in their future without an education. IF they do well and like the work....get them a job. If they wake up to the importance of education, so much more the better...let them reAPPLY to be reentered into school with a clearly defined contract.
 
By Jr. High...there should be a manditory work option for those students who disrupt classes, IMO. Instead of suspending them, put them on a manual labor detail somewhere for about a month or two...maybe even a year. Let them actually experience the kind of drudge hard work that is in their future without an education. IF they do well and like the work....get them a job. If they wake up to the importance of education, so much more the better...let them reAPPLY to be reentered into school with a clearly defined contract.

I kinda agree with the premise.

Even place them in a room with the TV...
I've always thought that if you keep them out of the classroom, the ennui of their 24-hour cartoon networks would eventually drive any with any intelligence to beg to be allowed back.

Giving too much credit?
 
By Jr. High...there should be a manditory work option for those students who disrupt classes, IMO. Instead of suspending them, put them on a manual labor detail somewhere for about a month or two...maybe even a year. Let them actually experience the kind of drudge hard work that is in their future without an education. IF they do well and like the work....get them a job. If they wake up to the importance of education, so much more the better...let them reAPPLY to be reentered into school with a clearly defined contract.

I like this idea but people will never go for it, making these kids work is considered abuse by alot of people.
 
By Jr. High...there should be a manditory work option for those students who disrupt classes, IMO. Instead of suspending them, put them on a manual labor detail somewhere for about a month or two...maybe even a year. Let them actually experience the kind of drudge hard work that is in their future without an education. IF they do well and like the work....get them a job. If they wake up to the importance of education, so much more the better...let them reAPPLY to be reentered into school with a clearly defined contract.

I would like to see school districts provide meaningful vocation/technical schools where students can gain real world skills and then job opportunities.
Most high schools' curricula are college prep and don't have much relevance for many students. Most European and Asian schools have strong vo-tech tracks. In Finland, half the students choose the vo-tech option. Hopefully, a more meaningful education would improve student interest and motivation. If students are still incorrigible, perhaps a "work program" would be appropriate.
 
I've always been in favor of expulsion when other methods of discipline won't bring a true trouble child in line. Nothing will make a parent wake up and realize there is a discipline problem quite like having their little Timmy home from school for the rest of the year.

I think the only real question here should be what merits suspension. I've heard of a few "bad apples" where a Principal steps up to the plate and suspends a student without valid cause. A lot of the Jena 6 case, IIRC correctly, spun out of students complaining that school suspensions were unfairly applied. If the school has a clear cut criteria for suspension and a clear and open process, it ought to be ok.

in this county a tutor is sent to home school the student all at expense to the taxpayer

even if they kill someone they are entitled to a free education
 
I used to toss disruptive students out of my classroom daily.

And then yes I flunked them if they deserved it, even if they were stars of the school's sports teams

Another reason I do not teach anymore.

I actually CARED about teaching my students the subject matter more than I cared about coddling student athletes and the coaches that loved them.
 
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