Come on USMB: Do you really want the economy to "fail"?

[Quantum Windbag]

What makes you think things would have been better for stock and bond holders if the GM would have gone through bankruptcy? I have owned stock in several companies that went through bankruptcy. Stock holders usually get nothing are only a few pennies a share. Bonds of manufacturing companies are usually secured by fixed assets such as plants, equipment, supplies, and inventory which rarely bring a good price.

Looking back, critics make the assumption that there would have been a reorganization and the automaker would have been saved. At the time the government stepped in there were no buyers. GM was headed toward liquidation of assets. The vultures were gathering to scoop up the remnants of GM at bargain prices. There is of course no way of knowing what would have actually occurred if the government had not saved GM. But one thing is for sure. It would have been a hell of a gamble. A gamble the country could ill afford to take.

You are arguing that instead of getting nothing, which they did under Obama's version of bankruptcy, they would only have received a few pennies on the dollar under a court monitored bankruptcy, and then trying to tell me they would have been worse off? Do you live in the same universe rdean does? Even if they had only a penny on the dollar, that would have been better than nothing.

Regardless of the ultimate outcome of that bankruptcy, it would have actually followed legal precedent, and protected the people that should be protected first, the actual investors, instead of the source of the problem, the unions. If, as you think, this would have resulted in a massive disruption of the economy and the auto industry, the government could easily have legally injected capital into the process.

Instead, they elected to disrupt laws, and make all future investments uncertain, because the government now can step in and save any company they think is too big too fail, and ignore the law while doing so. As an investor yourself you know that this will result in investors demanding more compensation for the increased risk. this will have a negative overall affect on the economy, and that can be seen today as companies, and individuals, with capital, prefer to sit on it rather than risk loosing it without knowing exactly what the dangers are.

Perhaps you shouldn't blindly assume you are smarter than everyone else.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And, most importantly, the President must not get any credit for preventing the Depression that the Republicans were determined to give us. For a second time!

I would love to give him the credit he deserves.

He said that without the stimulus unemployment would peak at under 9%, With it it reached 10%.

Are you sure you want him to get credit?

 

[elvis]

And, most importantly, the President must not get any credit for preventing the Depression that the Republicans were determined to give us. For a second time!

And most importantly, you're a brain dead moron. Why don't you stick to enviro-terror. It's all you're good at......

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I hate to break the news to you, but the membership of those "unions" is made up of those "middle class" workers. Obviously, you don't belong to one.

Notice how you just said some bullshit without a link and some evidence? Just pulled out of thin air. As if it's "common knowledge", but without bothering to collect any "facts"?

The obvious question, with all those jobs gone, what would come next. "Something else"? Is that right wing plan? "Something else"?

And the leadership of the unions are scamming them of their pension money, just like they scammed the unions that invested in GM and Chrysler. Politically connected unions took advantage of their power, and middle class workers suffered as a result. Why is it that you think the Democrats care more about the middle class than the Republicans when they continually display their willingness to ignore them in favor of votes?

I forgot you live in an alternate universe. Over here the Indiana State Pension fund getting screwed is common knowledge. Lots of teachers lost their retirement, even though bankruptcy law normally gives preference to secured creditors, not the unsecured creditors that got favorable, and illegal, treatment.

Retirees, Taxpayers Ripped Off to Subsidize UAW|OpenMarket.org

Since auto workers make anywhere from $58,000 to $83,000 an hour, depending on how you count their benefits, and teachers in Illinois make about half of that, i can see why Obama preferred to support the UAW, they have more money.

Hell, the overbearing federal mandates placed on the auto industry precluded Roger Penske from keeping the Saturn brand in business.

Where are the Obammybots whinin'-n-cryin' about those lost jobs?

Oh, yeah....Saturn was mostly non-union, so those jobs don't count.

Shhh

 

[elvis]

And, most importantly, the President must not get any credit for preventing the Depression that the Republicans were determined to give us. For a second time!

I would love to give him the credit he deserves.

He said that without the stimulus unemployment would peak at under 9%, With it it reached 10%.

Are you sure you want him to get credit?

Of course. Obama has a D after his name. he could send people to the ovens and Rockhead will continue to sing his praises.

 

[loosecannon]

Doesn't really matter, as anyone so shrewd as Roger Penske wouldn't have become involved had he not seen a way to turn a buck...That was until he met with federal technocrats and regulators, who wanted to dictate to hm what kinds of cars he would be allowed to build.

One word: DeLorean

 

[rdean]

No.

The agenda was to let the bankruptcy proceed legally, and not to toss secured creditors, like the many pension funds that lost money, and the middle class that depends on, be tossed aside in favor of politically powerful unions.

I hate to break the news to you, but the membership of those "unions" is made up of those "middle class" workers. Obviously, you don't belong to one.

Notice how you just said some bullshit without a link and some evidence? Just pulled out of thin air. As if it's "common knowledge", but without bothering to collect any "facts"?

The obvious question, with all those jobs gone, what would come next. "Something else"? Is that right wing plan? "Something else"?

And the leadership of the unions are scamming them of their pension money, just like they scammed the unions that invested in GM and Chrysler. Politically connected unions took advantage of their power, and middle class workers suffered as a result. Why is it that you think the Democrats care more about the middle class than the Republicans when they continually display their willingness to ignore them in favor of votes?

I forgot you live in an alternate universe. Over here the Indiana State Pension fund getting screwed is common knowledge. Lots of teachers lost their retirement, even though bankruptcy law normally gives preference to secured creditors, not the unsecured creditors that got favorable, and illegal, treatment.

Retirees, Taxpayers Ripped Off to Subsidize UAW|OpenMarket.org

Since auto workers make anywhere from $58,000 to $83,000 an hour, depending on how you count their benefits, and teachers in Illinois make about half of that, i can see why Obama preferred to support the UAW, they have more money.

So that's your "link"? To a right wing website that shows zero data, just speculation?

 

[rdean]

Wow, you guys scare me. The stuff you make up. Do you really believe your bullshit?

And the really strange thing, you are the same people that defend the CEO of Cigna getting a 73 million dollar paycheck. A paycheck that comes completely from skimming insurance policies, not from producing anything.

And, you completely ignore the fact of, not only what losing those industries would do to the rest of the economy, but car manufacturer suppliers wouldn't be able to make enough to stay in business. That means the other car manufacturers would leave.

This bizarre hatred of unions when corporations are moving jobs to China because they are only paid 51 cents an hour in China, work 60 to 70 hours a week and love to kill themselves. Unions are no, we will never compete with 51 cents an hour. Try to figure out why.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I hate to break the news to you, but the membership of those "unions" is made up of those "middle class" workers. Obviously, you don't belong to one.

Notice how you just said some bullshit without a link and some evidence? Just pulled out of thin air. As if it's "common knowledge", but without bothering to collect any "facts"?

The obvious question, with all those jobs gone, what would come next. "Something else"? Is that right wing plan? "Something else"?

And the leadership of the unions are scamming them of their pension money, just like they scammed the unions that invested in GM and Chrysler. Politically connected unions took advantage of their power, and middle class workers suffered as a result. Why is it that you think the Democrats care more about the middle class than the Republicans when they continually display their willingness to ignore them in favor of votes?

I forgot you live in an alternate universe. Over here the Indiana State Pension fund getting screwed is common knowledge. Lots of teachers lost their retirement, even though bankruptcy law normally gives preference to secured creditors, not the unsecured creditors that got favorable, and illegal, treatment.

Retirees, Taxpayers Ripped Off to Subsidize UAW|OpenMarket.org

Since auto workers make anywhere from $58,000 to $83,000 an hour, depending on how you count their benefits, and teachers in Illinois make about half of that, i can see why Obama preferred to support the UAW, they have more money.

So that's your "link"? To a right wing website that shows zero data, just speculation?

Just when I go and start thinking you are smarter than some of the posters on this board you have to go out and prove that you are not as smart as I think you are. the right wing blog contained a link to the Wall Street Journal.

About Those 'Speculators' . . . - WSJ.com

Three Indiana State Pension Funds sued over the Chrysler bail out.

In several motions with the Chrysler docket earlier, the Indiana State Teachers Retirement Fund, Indiana State Police Pension Trust, and Indiana Major Movers Construction Fund, fiduciaries for "approximately 100,000 civil servants, including police officers, school teachers and their families" have objected to the 363 sale, and demand Judge Gonzalez should block the sale, claiming "the plan is illegal and tramples their rights."

Among other things, the Indiana Pensioners seek to appoint both a trustee and an examiner in the case (an examiner was eventually retained in the Lehman bankruptcy), claiming that the company "has ceded control over their business and their restructuring efforts to the United States Treasury Department" which is using the Chapter 11 process to reward creditors that the "government deems politically important."

Not only that, but lawyers added that "the Treasury Department has taken constructive possession of Chrysler and is requiring it to adopt a sale plan in bankruptcy that violates the most fundamental principles of credit rights."

Indiana pension funds sue: Chrysler bailouts go to the politically wired. I'm shocked. | Corrente
all of this is common knowledge to anyone who manages to get their news from anyone other than Obama and his media cronies.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Wow, you guys scare me. The stuff you make up. Do you really believe your bullshit?

And the really strange thing, you are the same people that defend the CEO of Cigna getting a 73 million dollar paycheck. A paycheck that comes completely from skimming insurance policies, not from producing anything.

And, you completely ignore the fact of, not only what losing those industries would do to the rest of the economy, but car manufacturer suppliers wouldn't be able to make enough to stay in business. That means the other car manufacturers would leave.

This bizarre hatred of unions when corporations are moving jobs to China because they are only paid 51 cents an hour in China, work 60 to 70 hours a week and love to kill themselves. Unions are no, we will never compete with 51 cents an hour. Try to figure out why.

Keep trying rdean, it is sad, but entertaining.

 

[fyrenza]

I'm so sorry, rD,

but it ISN'T just "sad" anymore...

It's fucking pathetic.

NEW screen name, and This Time?

Watch the stones that you choose to step upon.

Otherwise, be prepared to Roll With The Flow of the tide.

But AFTER you lose this fucking LOSER s/n, baby!

I don't mean to be ugly to you, but you've overstayed your welcome, and you've overstepped any bounds of polite decorum with your fuktardedness,

and there is no place for you here.

I've had to leave forums, for that EXACT same reason, dude.

It isn't Right, Wrong,

nor is it In Between ~

it's just folks and how they are.

 

[code1211]

I'm looking at all the good news from the Auto Industry and I'm amazed that Republicans did everything they could to make sure that industry was destroyed, even though that would mean all the millions of Americans that would be unemployed.

Not just the companies, but the suppliers. Even Chrysler, it's suppliers wouldn't have managed to stay in business with Ford and GM gone. It's possible with no reliable suppliers, Honda and foreign companies might have stopped production, not to mention the fact that with so many people out of work, no one could buy cars anyway.

Then there would be all the industries supplying raw materials. And all the local business. Everything from donut shops to malls. It all would have been gone.

Then, without any revenue, teachers, police, firefighters, and all the other people that are needed to keep a community going would have been laid off.

Remember, this was the Republican agenda. Let the Auto Industries fail.

GM just repaid another 11 billion which drops the governments share from 60% to 30%.

Kokomo had an unemployment rate of 20% and now it's 12%. That's an 8% drop.

Chrysler is proposing a 2 billion dollar upgrade investment with 600 million going to Illinois.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101124/OEM/101129945/1137

Come on USMB. Be honest. If Obama hadn't saved the auto industry, where would our economy be? Let's see how honest you can be. And if you feel we should be in a major depression, please explain why.

No.

The agenda was to let the bankruptcy proceed legally, and not to toss secured creditors, like the many pension funds that lost money, and the middle class that depends on, be tossed aside in favor of politically powerful unions.

What makes you think things would have been better for stock and bond holders if the GM would have gone through bankruptcy? I have owned stock in several companies that went through bankruptcy. Stock holders usually get nothing are only a few pennies a share. Bonds of manufacturing companies are usually secured by fixed assets such as plants, equipment, supplies, and inventory which rarely bring a good price.

Looking back, critics make the assumption that there would have been a reorganization and the automaker would have been saved. At the time the government stepped in there were no buyers. GM was headed toward liquidation of assets. The vultures were gathering to scoop up the remnants of GM at bargain prices. There is of course no way of knowing what would have actually occurred if the government had not saved GM. But one thing is for sure. It would have been a hell of a gamble. A gamble the country could ill afford to take.

GM did go through bankruptcy.

 

[code1211]

And, most importantly, the President must not get any credit for preventing the Depression that the Republicans were determined to give us. For a second time!

I would love to give him the credit he deserves.

He said that without the stimulus unemployment would peak at under 9%, With it it reached 10%.

Are you sure you want him to get credit?

On November 2 he got the credit he deserves. Was I the only one watching?

 

[code1211]

Wow, you guys scare me. The stuff you make up. Do you really believe your bullshit?

And the really strange thing, you are the same people that defend the CEO of Cigna getting a 73 million dollar paycheck. A paycheck that comes completely from skimming insurance policies, not from producing anything.

And, you completely ignore the fact of, not only what losing those industries would do to the rest of the economy, but car manufacturer suppliers wouldn't be able to make enough to stay in business. That means the other car manufacturers would leave.

This bizarre hatred of unions when corporations are moving jobs to China because they are only paid 51 cents an hour in China, work 60 to 70 hours a week and love to kill themselves. Unions are no, we will never compete with 51 cents an hour. Try to figure out why.

In 1946, half of the developed old world was bombed to rubble by the Nazis and the Japanese and the other half was bombed to rubble by the Americans.

If anyone wanted to buy anything, they bought it from the USA which dominated the whole world. American manufacturers could do everything wrong and still be in business.

Important factoid for your consideration: It's not 1946 anymore.

We have entered into a world economy and no matter how hard you wish that movies were still in black and white and there was no TV and the computer had never been invented, you can't turn the clock back.

Fire up the old vacuum tubes and tune in the radio to the AM Stations you can recieve and try to catch up. Maybe Walter Winchell will have a story on the shift of the world's manufacturing from Detroit EVERYWHERE else in the whole freakin' world.

The Times, They Are a Changin'.

If you're not on this bus, your under it.

 

[Old Rocks]

Maybe Winchell and Pegler will have more stories on how the Merchant Marine are traitors at the time that they were taking more casualties than any branch of the Sevices.

You Conservatives have a long record of lying concerning the contributions of working people. And concerning the reality of what the greed of a few does to the dreams of the majority of this nation. We had one Great Republican Depression. We damned near had a Second Great Republican Depression. We will probably achieve that if the Republicans gain the White House in 2012.

 

[editec]

Their (read the Randian Republicans who have been in charge of that party for the last three decades) STATED objective is the bankrupt the goverment.

They've done marvelous job of that.

One of the ways that was done was by opening the floodgates to foreign manufactured goods thus putting downward pressure on working wages.

As the wages decline two thing happen at the same time:

1. The government needs more money for social welfare

2. The governments (state and local as well as federal) take in less money to pay the extra costs that come as a result of these stupid FREE TRADE policies.

So yeah, given that they openly stated that was their goal, I'd have to agree that the GOP's agenda is the destruction of this nation by economic means.

 

[mudwhistle]

I'm looking at all the good news from the Auto Industry and I'm amazed that Republicans did everything they could to make sure that industry was destroyed, even though that would mean all the millions of Americans that would be unemployed.

Not just the companies, but the suppliers. Even Chrysler, it's suppliers wouldn't have managed to stay in business with Ford and GM gone. It's possible with no reliable suppliers, Honda and foreign companies might have stopped production, not to mention the fact that with so many people out of work, no one could buy cars anyway.

Then there would be all the industries supplying raw materials. And all the local business. Everything from donut shops to malls. It all would have been gone.

Then, without any revenue, teachers, police, firefighters, and all the other people that are needed to keep a community going would have been laid off.

Remember, this was the Republican agenda. Let the Auto Industries fail.

GM just repaid another 11 billion which drops the governments share from 60% to 30%.

Kokomo had an unemployment rate of 20% and now it's 12%. That's an 8% drop.

Chrysler is proposing a 2 billion dollar upgrade investment with 600 million going to Illinois.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101124/OEM/101129945/1137

Come on USMB. Be honest. If Obama hadn't saved the auto industry, where would our economy be? Let's see how honest you can be. And if you feel we should be in a major depression, please explain why.

Obama never helped Ford yet they're thriving. Explain that.

GM and Chrysler are benefiting from billions of our tax dollars. They haven't changed their ways enough to remain solvent on their own. It's just a matter of time before they have to be bailed out again. The problem isn't that they make a bad product but that they've allowed the unions to dictate policy which is a recipe for disaster. Soon their burdensome health and retirement packages will cause the company to go into another tailspin and Obama will bail them out. They need to fail to force them to reorganize and prosper or go out of business.

 

[code1211]

Maybe Winchell and Pegler will have more stories on how the Merchant Marine are traitors at the time that they were taking more casualties than any branch of the Sevices.

You Conservatives have a long record of lying concerning the contributions of working people. And concerning the reality of what the greed of a few does to the dreams of the majority of this nation. We had one Great Republican Depression. We damned near had a Second Great Republican Depression. We will probably achieve that if the Republicans gain the White House in 2012.

So the times arent a changin'?

 

[code1211]

Their (read the Randian Republicans who have been in charge of that party for the last three decades) STATED objective is the bankrupt the goverment.

They've done marvelous job of that.

One of the ways that was done was by opening the floodgates to foreign manufactured goods thus putting downward pressure on working wages.

As the wages decline two thing happen at the same time:

1. The government needs more money for social welfare

2. The governments (state and local as well as federal) take in less money to pay the extra costs that come as a result of these stupid FREE TRADE policies.

So yeah, given that they openly stated that was their goal, I'd have to agree that the GOP's agenda is the destruction of this nation by economic means.

Do you have a link to the GOP's stated objective as you understand it?

Are you recomending isolationist policies?

 

[mudwhistle]

No.

The agenda was to let the bankruptcy proceed legally, and not to toss secured creditors, like the many pension funds that lost money, and the middle class that depends on, be tossed aside in favor of politically powerful unions.

What makes you think things would have been better for stock and bond holders if the GM would have gone through bankruptcy? I have owned stock in several companies that went through bankruptcy. Stock holders usually get nothing are only a few pennies a share. Bonds of manufacturing companies are usually secured by fixed assets such as plants, equipment, supplies, and inventory which rarely bring a good price.

Looking back, critics make the assumption that there would have been a reorganization and the automaker would have been saved. At the time the government stepped in there were no buyers. GM was headed toward liquidation of assets. The vultures were gathering to scoop up the remnants of GM at bargain prices. There is of course no way of knowing what would have actually occurred if the government had not saved GM. But one thing is for sure. It would have been a hell of a gamble. A gamble the country could ill afford to take.

GM did go through bankruptcy.

Even after all of that help from Obama.

So what was the point of all of the bailout money?

To pay off the unions.