Bull Ring Challenge to IM2 - Do you understand that change is mutual?

Discussion in 'The Bull Ring' started by emilynghiem, Jul 30, 2019.

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  1. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    Someone I respect a lot for standing ground and not apologizing for presenting racism defined a certain way (in this case, defining racism to be White centered where the European/Caucasian lineage is taken to be the default dominant class and center of the hierarchical power structure and historic oppression of other classes)

    DOESN'T seem to grasp the natural law concept
    that any change involves EQUAL effort on BOTH SIDES of the relationship
    or conflict between the two people, sides or groups confronting each other.

    This process of change or adaptation to work with the biases of the other
    is MUTUAL. It's not "one way" where one side demands to keep how they
    see, say or do things, and only the "other side conforms or changes to accommodate."

    This isn't some "white man's law" or "white perception imposed on everyone else"

    I argue it's just plain NATURAL LAWS based on how the human conscience is DESIGNED
    where we are socially or spiritually connected as HUMANS independent of race, class, gender,
    culture etc. and we NATURALLY respond in TANDEM to each other.

    So anything that's going to change involves equal and opposite exchange on BOTH SIDES.

    And collectively, that's how we change society and institutions
    by starting INDIVIDUALLY and working in RELATIONS to effect COLLECTIVE/GLOBAL change as a result.

    But IM2 who I respect for expressing and sticking to principles and beliefs,
    thinks this is more "white man's abuse of individualism" to break down collective identity
    of blacks and minorities and keep imposing the same power structure that empowers whites unequally.

    How is "change being mutual" only a "white man's game".

    I challenge IM2 to explain in Black cultural terms
    this universal phenomenon where change happens holistically,
    mutually between people, and isn't a "game" of one person or
    one group imposing change on OTHERS without also having to change to the same degree.

    How do you state that UNIVERSAL principle where it isn't white imposition.

    What is the BLACK cultural way of expressing how change happens mutually?
     
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  2. IM2
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    IM2 Gold Member

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    Emily you are ignorant. We are talking about a construct called race created by whites that ascribes superior status to white people. As part of this, whites created laws and policies to deny non whites of specific things. None of this has anything to do with natural law.

    So you start showing me examples where non whites colonized white nations or even other non white nations in modern times and forced them to change their culture. So you show me where Nigeria took an army into Saudi Arabia and colonized it. Show me where Brasil colonized China. Perhaps you can show me how the Ugandan government paid militants to get the UK to break away from the EU, then picked Boris Johnson to be prime minister. Perhaps you can show me the international conference where middle eastern countries partitioned off Europe, Asia or South America. You are talking about mutual change like everybody has done the same thing. That is not true.

    So until you can show equivalent actions by non whites to what whites have done in modern times, this is as much of your challenge as I am going to take.
     
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  3. TroglocratsRdumb
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    TroglocratsRdumb Gold Member

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    Democrats are obsessed with race because they are racist.
    Race is the only thing that IM2 ever thinks about.
     
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  4. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    Dear TroglocratsRdumb
    If that's the way IM2 sees and says things, each person
    has equal right to decide their own native language and format.

    My question to IM2 is
    1. to what degree can someone expect change
    in relation to how much THAT PERSON is willing to adjust
    to accommodate someone else's approach they bring to the table
    2. if IM2 objects to any "white" person/cultural way of saying this,
    then what is the EQUIVALENT in the Black based language and culture
    for saying that our perceptions and relations are INTERCONNECTED.
    That we CO INFLUENCE each other where we compel change in interacting?

    The BLACK leader/activist founder of Center for the Healing of Racism
    calls it the ONENESS OF HUMANITY that drives all people to resolution
    between and including all groups and recovering from all setbacks and injustices
    in each lineage's history as part of a UNIVERSAL PROCESS for all people in society as a whole.

    That may have more NATIVE AMERICAN influence to see humanity
    as one spiritual family from an EARTH BASED cultural perspective.

    But what does IM2 call this interconnected process
    or MUTUAL influence, where any change begets or incurs
    an EQUAL and OPPOSITE change. What do people from
    other backgrounds (besides White culture) call this process?
     
  5. IM2
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    All you can do is try to gaslight.
     
  6. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    Hi IM2 here's one point where we can try this mutual letting go.
    If we drop the issue of someone's racist biased statements/approaches
    and another person gaslighting or dismissing or attacking that. And let's
    agree to focus on the CONTENT, the point is how do we talk about this
    PRINCIPLE -- that change in dynamic occurs MUTUALLY between
    people or sides in a relationship or in a conflict. What is the way
    YOU personally would describe this mutual influence we have on each other?

    Where if we want something to change, that means the dynamic involved
    is going to affect BOTH sides, not just one side changing and the other staying as they are.

    What do you call that IM2?

    Asians and Natives refer to an Interconnected web of existence
    or spiritual connection between all members of humanity.
    So what happens to one affects us all. Malcolm X referred to injustice
    that until all of us are free, none of us is free, and as long as one of
    us is oppressed or hungry or thirsty, we all suffer oppression hunger and thirst.

    How would you describe this where it isn't white influence or individualism talking?

    That's the connection I never want to lose with you or anyone else.
    That's fine if we argue and disagree and address conflicts, but
    when it's WITHIN that sense of connection, then we can still respect
    and work with each other's differences. What do you call that connection
    that exists naturally between people no matter how much destruction
    seeks to disrupt it. Spiritually it still compels both sides to address the conflict.
     
  7. Third Party
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    Third Party Gold Member

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    Should I tell Emily she is wasting her time with you, or are you going to?
     
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  8. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    Dear Third Party
    At some point I did feel like giving up.
    I couldn't understand why the IM2 I spoke with before
    was blocked off by this huge barrier where I couldn't feel that same connection.

    Sometimes giving up is the best way to draw in a better person
    or approach than before.

    I'm willing to try both ways, and whatever works, to solve
    the problems with these disconnects, otherwise allowing black history
    to be destroyed while everyone stands around pointing the finger at others
    and nothing gets done or changes.

    What does it take to change that deadlock paradigm?
    What does it take to have the same interactive dynamic or better
    where Freedmen's Town was built by Black and White Christians
    working together since Freed Slaves weren't citizens and weren't
    getting any help except from fellow brothers and sisters in the church,
    especially WHITES that did have the business contacts to get the Black
    residents paid and working to own and develop their own district and
    property ownership/management of houses, streets, churches and clubs/businesses
    they owned, ran and governed themselves independent of any political help through govt.

    What does it take to restore that same connection we seem to have lost?

    I felt that connection, then felt it was totally wiped out and nonexistent.
    I had to start over and still trying to re-establish some sense of common interest and goals.

    If IM2 and I can restore a common connection so goals can be furthered,
    can't the same happen collectively for other people and groups disconnected
    and disrupted over the race issues and racist talk that has totally SEVERED working relations?

    Sure giving up is one phase in that process.
    But after that, what comes in to replace it?
    What is the better solution or approach to get to the
    next stage of progress to overcome the oppressive dynamics?
     
  9. IM2
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    Emily, I am talking about a continuing series of injustices that Native Americans are fighting with us.

    When you look at a family, the other family members do not have to change if they demand that a misbehaving member of that family changes.

    This whole "challenge" comes because I reject a false belief held by a sub group within the white culture. And you don't seem to get that. Also you apparently have no understanding of why I reject that group of whites way of thinking. It is because they are not interested in mutual anything. The emphasis on individualism in a society built on and still maintaining white group preferences is bullshit.

    Each time there has been a so called resolution to the problems done by whites, they created new ways to continue the injustice. When slavery ended we got 90 years of apartheid. In the 54 years since apartheid we have the aversive racism you read in forums like this. Whites objected to the passage of the voting rights act in 1964 and the republican party nominated a presidential candidate who opposed civil rights named Goldwater. Over the course of the last 54 years there has been a consistent white backlash against voting rights and civil rights by whites, most specifically conservative white republicans.

    Shelby v. Holder was decided by a straight line conservative vote in the supreme court and it has gutted provisions of the voting rights act, leading to the current voter suppression. But you have ignored all of this which has gone on in your lifetime to talk about a mutual change.

    In my life I have worked with many white people. I think that in 58 years of life, which is the same amount of time you have existed, I know who the whites are that you have described relative to those that helped build freedmans town and the ones who are not. Do not run your mouth under the stupid assumption that I dislike all whites or that I will not accept opinions from anyone white. But assholes like third party, flacaltenn, morrison and others like them, who you ignore and agree with while challenging me based upon your own refusal to confront them, no.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  10. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    That's fine if you reject the whole White approach which you explained IM2

    My question is what do YOU call the natural connection between humans
    which Native Americans call interconnected web of life spiritually.

    Also, do you blame the White cultural influence for why
    Native American tribes voted to reject people of Black Slave descendency?

    One of my friends who is both Black and Native American wrote letters
    petitioning against this intertribal segregation and rejection.

    Do you consider that part of the tribal process naturally that people go through?
    Do you blame White societal or political corruption for why that happened
    within mixed communities with both Native Tribal and Black Slave heritage?

    If that division can be resolved because the connection between people
    is naturally GREATER than the tribal separations, doesn't that mean
    that white and black tribes can separate and still coexist in harmony
    instead of being at war and in conflict.

    Rejecting a group's ways doesn't mean you have to be in hateful resentment.
    Texas and Alaska have separate sovereign laws and ways and they don't have
    to compete in hostile conflict to recognize each other's authority and separate ways.

    What does it take to have both the "ONENESS" of humanity that
    Native Americans, Bahai, and Eastern philosophy teaches
    WITHOUT fearing imposition of "white culture" to the point of
    expending energy fighting against that.

    How do we restore the natural default that even the Native
    Americans have a concept and term for. What do you call that from
    your cultural, personal or spiritual understanding of the process humanity is going through?

    And YES you can totally reject White cultural and historic oppression and dominance,
    and still have a term or principle for what is the natural default connecting humanity spiritually.

    Those don't mean negating one or dismissing the other.
    They are part of the same process. What do YOU call this process or how do YOU describe it?

    What does the final solution look like to you?
     
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