CDZ Can you vote democrat and support the 2nd Amendment?

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by 2aguy, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. Luddly Neddite
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    Luddly Neddite Diamond Member

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    Hillary never said that.

    And I’m a liberal with guns.

    The very definition of liberal is pro- constitution.


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  2. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    There is no rational reason to limit law abiding people to certain magazines.....you have an emotion about it...but you have no rational reason. If you want to make it against the law to use a magazine in a gun to commit a crime...go for it...till then, leave normal people alone....

    Here...try doing some research before you post about a topic....

    Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

    Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
    The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
    LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
    News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
    There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
    In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
    Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

    --------

    We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

    LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

    Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


    For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

    Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

    Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

    Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

    Specifically, we searched for

    (1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

    (2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

    (3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

    (4) the types of guns possessed,

    (5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

    (6) the number of rounds fired,

    (7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

    Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

    We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


    Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

    (Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

    There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

    -----

    How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

    First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

    Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

    Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

    Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

    Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


    It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

    For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

    In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

    In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


    In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

    After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

    The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


    The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

    This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

    The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

    Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

    According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

    It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

    (1) the shooter was reloading, or because

    (2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

    Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

    One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

    In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

    Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

    Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

    . If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

    Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
    It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
    -----
    The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

    The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

    Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

    The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

    It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

    ----

    For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

    The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

    There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

    The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

    If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

    On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

    In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

    -----

    In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

    Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.
     
  3. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    And you are lying.....every argument you have made has been dissected by other people and the silly things you want have been shown to be useless, and targeted at normal people.....and that they would not effect criminals in any way.....there isn't one thing you bring up that would do anything to lower the gun crime rate. They would, however, give you a greater ability to make criminals out of normal gun owners through criminalizing normal gun ownership.
     
  4. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    We already regulate guns........if you use a gun to commit a crime you go to jail. If you buy, own or carry a gun as a felon, you go to jail.....

    We already can do both of these actions........

    Most of the public, like you, doesn't understand the issues involved in gun control......you show this with every post...
     
  5. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    It is based on Heller....

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf



    We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35–36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.
     
  6. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    If you vote for democrats you are voting to end the 2nd Amendment......
     
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  7. Wry Catcher
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    Wry Catcher Platinum Member

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    You proved how wrong you are, no where in the 2nd. A. is any mention made to "bearable arms".

    BTW, I suggest you obtain an anti-personal grenade and take it into your local court house. While being cuffed claim your right to the 2nd A.
     
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  8. Luddly Neddite
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    Luddly Neddite Diamond Member

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    And the US is all about gunning down each other.

    That’s what’s wrong with the mental illness argument. There’s mental illness everywhere but there are not the number of mass killings that the US has.


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  9. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    Our gun murder rate is concentrated among criminals murdering each other....70-80% of gun murder victims are criminals, which means out of a country of over 320,000,000 people, about 1,200 people are innocent victims of gun murder...and of those, many of them are friends and family of criminals caught in the crossfire.

    Our problem isn't law abiding gun owners who own and carry guns for self defense....our problem, as highlighted by San Francisco, is that violent criminals are released over and over again...they are the ones using guns for crime and murder...and you guys keep letting them back out to do it again and again...
     
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  10. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    What do you think "Bear Arms is referring to? Even left wing nut job ruth bader ginsburg knows what that means...

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

    In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of “carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, JUSTICE GINSBURG wrote that “urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicate: ‘wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’” I
     

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