Can Public Option Work?

[judyd]

Death panels are not a hoax. Their absence is a trap for the credulous. The way the system is set, there must inevitably be death panels because care will eventually have to be rationed. It is pure economics 101: set the cost below market and you create shortages. The shortages must be adjudicated in the same way the pricing mechanism would have done so. Here, there will be a bunch of bureaucrats making the decision instead of the marketplace.
Insurance is not socialism. It is the opposite in fact. Socialism is not egalitarian either, despite whatever rhetoric the communists are using these days.
Whenever this type of thing has been tried, the costs skyrocket and quality stinks. This has been shown over and over and is supported by the economics of it.

Lies, all lies.

Every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

And they get about a tenth of the quality of care when they get sick.
No thanks, I'll stick to our present system.

That is where you're wrong. You must not have had a serious operation in the US, or had your elderly parent in the hospital if you think there is no problem in the US and we have the best treatment. WE DON'T!!! The insurance companies dictate to the hospitals in the US what can be done or not done for patients--if the hospitals want them to pay them, that is. It's pretty harsh.

And how about pre-existing conditions which don't get paid for in the US? Many people are afraid to change jobs because they won't be able to get insurance again. So they are stuck in deadend jobs.

People in other countries think the US system is insane and rightly so. Why should employers have to be involved in our healthcare? Why are we paying ridiculous rates for pharmaceutical products?

I would love to have the healthcare system they have in most European countries.

 

[Oddball]

We spend 16% of our GDP on health care, don't cover all of our citizens, and get lousy results. Japan spends 8%, has much better waiting times than we, and stellar results. And they cover all their citizens.

Japan also has American troops as the real backbone of their military forces, per the capitulation of 1945.

Next completely flaccid argument?

and BECAUSE of THAT dude, the usa should be spending LESS of their gdp on health care than Japan....because we have a huge military industrial complex spending that is in our gdp, then our health care costs should be a smaller percent of the overall gdp when prorated.

and japan's health care costs of there gdp SHOULD BE A LARGER percent of their gdp because they do not have a military expense in their gdp.

so it is really much WORSE....we should be spending only +/- 4% of gdp on healthcare....or a lower percentage than Japan.

According to whom?

I don't suppose you realize that a lot of what Americans spend on medical services is for electives like lasik and boob jobs, do you?

 

[Harry Dresden]

Same with the post office. The cost of stamps will go up to cover expenses.

You just can't get anything right, can you?

the cost of the stamp has very little to do with covering expenses....the so called junkmail is what keeps the cost of that stamp so low.....the direct mail advertisers are who pay the majority of the expenses in the PO.......

 

[Oddball]

Funny, that reminds me of the "Canadian are living off of the US for their cheap medicine". Maybe it's time we take a hint?

(The best part is when politicians want to reimport drugs from Canada)

I have no problem with that.....If Canadians want to subsidize medications, why not let Americans get in on their foolishness?

 

[Harry Dresden]

We spend 16% of our GDP on health care, don't cover all of our citizens, and get lousy results. Japan spends 8%, has much better waiting times than we, and stellar results. And they cover all their citizens.

Japan also has American troops as the real backbone of their military forces, per the capitulation of 1945.

Next completely flaccid argument?

Which is beside the point.

Every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

when Japan has to start defending themselves and has to put more into their military....that will change....

 

[The Rabbi]

Actually my wife just spent time in both the ER and the hospital last week, so it's pretty fresh.
She got excellent timely care. The ER offered us a deal if we paid the cost before we left. I did so. It was very reasonable.

The rest of the world has its head up its ass. I don't care what they think. You want Euro-style medicine, where survival rates for breast and ovarian cancer are worse than the US and tax rates are probably twice and structural unemployment is rampant, go move to Europe.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Can you please show me, what in the constitution does not allow citizens to BUY THEIR OWN HEALTH INSURANCE with their own money?

Can you please show me where Medicare or Medicaid or Social security insurance or flood insurance is UNCONSTITUTIONAL?

you and others keep SAYING this but I see nothing in the constitution that prevents this....???

have they not been asking those like yourself to show them....where in the Constitution it says the govt should be involved in health ins.....it seems to go both ways......get everyone together and make an amendment.....that says this,case closed....until then....its the Ins. Industries ballgame....

 

[Varth Dader]

Can you please show me, what in the constitution does not allow citizens to BUY THEIR OWN HEALTH INSURANCE with their own money?

Can you please show me where Medicare or Medicaid or Social security insurance or flood insurance is UNCONSTITUTIONAL?

you and others keep SAYING this but I see nothing in the constitution that prevents this....???

have they not been asking those like yourself to show them....where in the Constitution it says the govt should be involved in health ins.....it seems to go both ways......get everyone together and make an amendment.....that says this,case closed....until then....its the Ins. Industries ballgame....

It says that under the commerce clause or the general welfare clause.

 

[Oddball]

Can you please show me, what in the constitution does not allow citizens to BUY THEIR OWN HEALTH INSURANCE with their own money?

Can you please show me where Medicare or Medicaid or Social security insurance or flood insurance is UNCONSTITUTIONAL?

you and others keep SAYING this but I see nothing in the constitution that prevents this....???

have they not been asking those like yourself to show them....where in the Constitution it says the govt should be involved in health ins.....it seems to go both ways......get everyone together and make an amendment.....that says this,case closed....until then....its the Ins. Industries ballgame....

It says that under the commerce clause or the general welfare clause.

James Madison disagrees with you.

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa41.htm

 

[Varth Dader]

have they not been asking those like yourself to show them....where in the Constitution it says the govt should be involved in health ins.....it seems to go both ways......get everyone together and make an amendment.....that says this,case closed....until then....its the Ins. Industries ballgame....

It says that under the commerce clause or the general welfare clause.

James Madison disagrees with you.

The Federalist #41

James Madison is dead, the Federalist papers are not part of the signed document, the Federalist papers are not even mentionned in the document, the SCOTUS has an interpretation of the commerce clause that would likely support such a plan, etc.

 

[Oddball]

Are you beiung obtuse on purpose?

In Federalist 41, James Madison (the architect of the Constitution), explained in very clear terms what was meant by "general welfare", and a fascistic takeover of the medical services industry doesn't come anywhere near that description.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Can you please show me, what in the constitution does not allow citizens to BUY THEIR OWN HEALTH INSURANCE with their own money?

Can you please show me where Medicare or Medicaid or Social security insurance or flood insurance is UNCONSTITUTIONAL?

you and others keep SAYING this but I see nothing in the constitution that prevents this....???

have they not been asking those like yourself to show them....where in the Constitution it says the govt should be involved in health ins.....it seems to go both ways......get everyone together and make an amendment.....that says this,case closed....until then....its the Ins. Industries ballgame....

It says that under the commerce clause or the general welfare clause.

Neither clause gives them this power.

To Provide the General Defense and PROMOTE the general welfare. If they meant it to provide for the general welfare then the authors would have stated such.

I'm glad to see no one challenging my factful statement that the obama admin and dems in congress are planning to use the public option to lead to Socialized Single Payer Government Run Care. I've posted this fact with links across multiple threads and not one supporter has dissagreed....i'm glad you guys all admit to this fact. Kudos to you all.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The final portion of Rab's post at the top of the page is simply false. He can't document it, which is his burden, so let's move on.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Can you please show me, what in the constitution does not allow citizens to BUY THEIR OWN HEALTH INSURANCE with their own money?

Can you please show me where Medicare or Medicaid or Social security insurance or flood insurance is UNCONSTITUTIONAL?

you and others keep SAYING this but I see nothing in the constitution that prevents this....???

have they not been asking those like yourself to show them....where in the Constitution it says the govt should be involved in health ins.....it seems to go both ways......get everyone together and make an amendment.....that says this,case closed....until then....its the Ins. Industries ballgame....

It says that under the commerce clause or the general welfare clause.

thats already been debunked about 10x here in different threads....

 

[The Rabbi]

The final portion of Rab's post at the top of the page is simply false. He can't document it, which is his burden, so let's move on.

I have several times in different posts.
So it's another smelly piece of shit from the keyboard of "Jake, King of the Unsubstantiated Statement."

 

[Varth Dader]

Are you beiung obtuse on purpose?

In Federalist 41, James Madison (the architect of the Constitution), explained in very clear terms what was meant by "general welfare", and a fascistic takeover of the medical services industry doesn't come anywhere near that description.

Like I said, what James Madison thought of the meaning of the words "general welfare" is of great interest, yet isn't "binding". No one voted for the Federalist 41, they voted for the constitution, and over time, it's our job to interpret the constitution. We are allowed to give words their plain meaning.

 

[Oddball]

Are you beiung obtuse on purpose?

In Federalist 41, James Madison (the architect of the Constitution), explained in very clear terms what was meant by "general welfare", and a fascistic takeover of the medical services industry doesn't come anywhere near that description.

Like I said, what James Madison thought of the meaning of the words "general welfare" is of great interest, yet isn't "binding". No one voted for the Federalist 41, they voted for the constitution, and over time, it's our job to interpret the constitution. We are allowed to give words their plain meaning.

Jesus tapdancing Christ.....You are being obtuse on purpose.

The Constitution itself was ratified as the law of the land, with the meanings of its semantics and intents being expounded upon in the Federalist and Anti-federalist papers.

Claiming that you get to change the meanings of the words and their clear intents to suit your situational ethics is straight out Orwellian bullshit.

 

[Chris]

Actually my wife just spent time in both the ER and the hospital last week, so it's pretty fresh.
She got excellent timely care. The ER offered us a deal if we paid the cost before we left. I did so. It was very reasonable.

The rest of the world has its head up its ass. I don't care what they think. You want Euro-style medicine, where survival rates for breast and ovarian cancer are worse than the US and tax rates are probably twice and structural unemployment is rampant, go move to Europe.

Europe's unemployment rate is less than ours.

And their healthcare costs HALF as much per capita as ours, and they have a higher life expectancy. And the French have many more doctors per capita than we do.

But keep living in your fantasy world where you don't check facts.

 

[AVG-JOE]

To answer you:

1. Did social security work? No it's bankrupt
2. Did Medicare work? No it's bankrupt
3. Did Medicade work? No it's bankrupt
4. Is the U.S post office in serious financial trouble? Yes it is
5. Is the Senate cafeteria in red ink? Yes it is
6. Is the federal government RESPONSIBLE for this current economic collapse & all the bail-out's? Yes it is (through their incompetent management of Fannie/Freddie--in which they decided it would be a great idea to lower lending requirements while co-signing our names to 50% of the mortgages in this country--which created a financial domino effect on banking--AIG--Wall street & others.)

So now--do you still believe it's a good idea for them to take over health care?--

What a fantasy world you live in.

Yes, Social Security and Medicare work quite well, and the post office does a great job. As do the police, the firemen, the military, and most all of the other government workers.

And Phil Gramm's deregulation of Wall Street created the $516 TRILLION DOLLAR derivative bubble that destroyed our economy. It wasn't the housing crisis.

So keep on living in your fantasy world.

As I said, chief dim bulb of the board. SS and Medicare are bankrupt. PO is bankrupt. Police and firemen are local, not federal. Military is hardly the model of efficiency and survive only by having basically unlimited funds.
Deregulation of wall st (whatever that means) has resulted in mega increases in net worth in this country over the last 10 years.
WHo lives in a fantasy world again??

You do Rabbi. There is a lot that government does that works well in spite of congress and their meddling with things for personal gain.

Safe food? Thank government!

Do you ever use Roads, Bridges, Airports, etc? Thank government!

Think about it!

 

[Care4all]

have they not been asking those like yourself to show them....where in the Constitution it says the govt should be involved in health ins.....it seems to go both ways......get everyone together and make an amendment.....that says this,case closed....until then....its the Ins. Industries ballgame....

It says that under the commerce clause or the general welfare clause.

thats already been debunked about 10x here in different threads....

first, the government is not taking over health care and running it in these bills, they are regulating it...and it is within their powers to regulate imo.

Is Social Security, and Medicare, and medicaid unconstitutional? I haven't had a chance to go back in the thread yet to see if anyone has answered that question, so I apologize if you answered already Harry....



Care