Are China and America doomed to conflict?

[Tom Paine 1949]

they are ruled by monsters

No. They are monsters of your imagination. The Chinese system is bureaucratic, authoritarian, and it has a tendency to throw up one man rule (even a cult of personality) now under Xi, all of which have deep cultural roots in Chinese society. The Party is like the old Confucian / imperial bureaucracy, now supervising a modern economy. It is not rooted in “communism” except in name. It is a nationalist party whose cadres are well educated people with deep connections to their society, proud of the difficult transformations they have overseen in society. Top leaders must rise through the ranks, rotated around the whole country, running cities and provinces and huge enterprises. No movie stars or diletantes. Corruption there certainly is. Cynicism. Despicable toadying sycophants. But the core leadership is probably a more meritocratic and competent force than you can imagine. Much more human, too.

If you could somehow tomorrow simply disappear the “evil” Xi leadership and the other top CP groups, what do you think might replace them? Among all the rich capitalists, the state capitalist enterprises, the furiously competitive and hard-working professionals and middle classes, the soldiers, the easily misled and ignorant poor — what might emerge from 1.4 billion people without the guiding force of the CP? You might not like what would replace this party. It sure as hell won’t be a Jeffersonian democracy.

 

[Mac-7]

what might emerge from 1.4 billion people without the guiding force of the CP?

There are no guarantees

but Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan manage to be democratic and humane so why not mainland china?

 

[DustyInfinity]

If we stop propping them up, and forge a strong trade coalition that does not aid the Chinese, then they wouldn't have the economic power to be a threat. Terrorist, non conventional stuff, sure, but not a direct world power threat. Don't give them money and technology, problem solved.

 

[KGB]

they are ruled by monsters

No. They are monsters of your imagination. The Chinese system is bureaucratic, authoritarian, and it has a tendency to throw up one man rule (even a cult of personality) now under Xi, all of which have deep cultural roots in Chinese society. The Party is like the old Confucian / imperial bureaucracy, now supervising a modern economy. It is not rooted in “communism” except in name. It is a nationalist party whose cadres are well educated people with deep connections to their society, proud of the difficult transformations they have overseen in society. Top leaders must rise through the ranks, rotated around the whole country, running cities and provinces and huge enterprises. No movie stars or diletantes. Corruption there certainly is. Cynicism. Despicable toadying sycophants. But the core leadership is probably a more meritocratic and competent force than you can imagine. Much more human, too.

If you could somehow tomorrow simply disappear the “evil” Xi leadership and the other top CP groups, what do you think might replace them? Among all the rich capitalists, the state capitalist enterprises, the furiously competitive and hard-working professionals and middle classes, the soldiers, the easily misled and ignorant poor — what might emerge from 1.4 billion people without the guiding force of the CP? You might not like what would replace this party. It sure as hell won’t be a Jeffersonian democracy.

Since you continue to soft pedal the CCP, I will remind you this is the same country that produced the worst mass muderer in human history...Mao

Communism is a disease upon humanity...

 

[DustyInfinity]

Our relationship with China was supposed to Westernize them to some extent. That obviously did not happen, nor will it happen. Cut ties, they are not much different than North Korea.

 

[KGB]

what might emerge from 1.4 billion people without the guiding force of the CP?

There are no guarantees

but Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan manage to be democratic and humane so why not mainland china?

Singapore isn’t part of China, Hong Kong was set up by the British, Taiwan is the result of losing the war on the mainland. Asian societies tend to be more go with the flow & respect for authority. Hong Kong had many years of British influence & Chiang Kai-shek saw Mao for the murderous scum bag he was. Unfortunately they lost the civil war, so here we are today..

 

[Mac-7]

Singapore isn’t part of China, Hong Kong was set up by the British, Taiwan is the result of losing the war on the mainland.

My point is that chinese people are capable of having a western style democracy that respects civil rights and human rights

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

what might emerge from 1.4 billion people without the guiding force of the CP?

There are no guarantees, but Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan manage to be democratic and humane so why not mainland china?

Good point. Of course Chinese people are capable of establishing a democratic life and society, though it may not seem “Western style” in a future Mainland China. Why should it? The road to a more democratic society in China will necessarily be very different than it was in the tiny trade and finance based island city states. Different than Taiwan, which inherited what was left of the old professional and gentry classes from the mainland, fleeing with the ragtag Guomindang Army, then propped up for decades (of dictatorial rule) by the Americans, until the economy took off and the historic entrepreneurial instincts of the Chinese diaspora re-established itself.

We are certainly to an extent economic competitors of state-capitalist China. Our political systems are strikingly different. We have little tolerance for serious trade challenges from a “Godless communist” country. We are falling into a Thucydides Trap that will change and distort everything. This would be the case even if China were a Western-style “democratic“ state, which it certainly isn’t. A new Cold War almost certainly will combine with our own arrogant and probably unrealistic assumption that we must be “numero uno,” and with our ideological obsessions — to make it harder for China to democratize itself.

Real war is very likely if we push into the few areas China’s leaders and most of its people think are essential to its interests. Taiwan, whether we like it or not, is one such place. It may be the trigger for a major confrontation. Frankly, as much as we can admire its success in recent decades, its vibrant democracy, it is 81 miles from China and — in the big picture — is not worth going to war over. If we can help it by other means, of course that is fine. China itself may change. But we should be clear that war with a determined China over Taiwan ... is not in our interest.

 

[KGB]

what might emerge from 1.4 billion people without the guiding force of the CP?

There are no guarantees, but Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan manage to be democratic and humane so why not mainland china?

Good point. Of course Chinese people are capable of establishing a democratic life and society, though it may not seem “Western style” in a future Mainland China. Why should it? The road to a more democratic society in China will necessarily be very different than it was in the tiny trade and finance based island city states. Different than Taiwan, which inherited what was left of the old professional and gentry classes from the mainland, fleeing with the ragtag Guomindang Army, then propped up for decades (of dictatorial rule) by the Americans, until the economy took off and the historic entrepreneurial instincts of the Chinese diaspora re-established itself.

We are certainly to an extent economic competitors of state-capitalist China. Our political systems are strikingly different. We have little tolerance for serious trade challenges from a “Godless communist” country. We are falling into a Thucydides Trap that will change and distort everything. This would be the case even if China were a Western-style “democratic“ state, which it certainly isn’t. A new Cold War almost certainly will combine with our own arrogant and probably unrealistic assumption that we must be “numero uno,” and with our ideological obsessions — to make it harder for China to democratize itself.

Real war is very likely if we push into the few areas China’s leaders and most of its people think are essential to its interests. Taiwan, whether we like it or not, is one such place. It may be the trigger for a major confrontation. Frankly, as much as we can admire its success in recent decades, its vibrant democracy, it is 81 miles from China and — in the big picture — is not worth going to war over. If we can help it by other means, of course that is fine. China itself may change. But we should be clear that war with a determined China over Taiwan ... is not in our interest.

West Berlin was inside Communist East Germany, yet we thought it was worth preserving...destroying communism is always in our interests...

 

[Mac-7]

But we should be clear that war with a determined China over Taiwan ... is not in our interest.

China is expansionist and predatory

if we fail to stand with Taiwan our promises will be worthless throughout Asia

but dont assume war over Taiwan is inevitable

if we remain economically and therefore militarily and politically strong china will not go to war over Taiwan

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

West Berlin was inside Communist East Germany, yet we thought it was worth preserving...destroying communism is always in our interests...

If the Red Army marched into West Berlin any time in the 1950s after the USSR had the bomb, there was nothing we could have done. Also, only after the West German economy became much superior to East Germany, when the East Germans really seriously wanted to reunite, when Russia allowed it to do so under Gorbachev, was that reuniting possible. Of course if mainland Chinese are in the midst of a revolution to overthrow the CCP, the situation might be very different. As is, there is little or nothing we can realistically do if mainland China in five or ten years decides to squeeze Taiwan and force unification. China just dropped the word “peaceful” from its normal call for “peaceful reunification” across the straight of Taiwan. This is perhaps the first sign that the U.S.-China Cold War may bring sudden disaster to the people of Taiwan.

As for economic strength, the Soviet Union economy never surpassed perhaps 30% of the U.S. economy. China is already our equal. Its naval and air forces will soon be MUCH stronger than the U.S. in the East China (and South China) Sea.

 

[Mac-7]

As is, there is little or nothing we can realistically do if mainland China in five or ten years decides to squeeze Taiwan and force unification.

If invasion is so easy why has china not done so already?

and yes the soviets could have overrun West Berlin

but they didnt because the consequences were too great

which is the same choice red china faces

 

[fncceo]

It's happened before.

 

[fncceo]

Looking forward to a 2nd remake of "Red Dawn"

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Mac-7 —
Of course you are correct. It would NOT now be easy. Taiwan would fight. The U.S. might intervene, or might not. I do not want any such thing! Even XiJinping doesn’t want to pay the tremendous price of a war or invasion. The Taiwanese also don’t want war. They trade with China. There are well over a million Taiwanese business people living on the mainland. And yet if the Chinese feel forced into a corner, facing a Cold War and a near total disruption of trade, or a Taiwan declaring independence and inviting U.S. ships to visit, or maybe a Western cut-off of oil supplies from the Gulf, they most definitely will act.

 

[Mac-7]

Mac-7 —
Of course you are correct. It would NOT now be easy. Taiwan would fight. The U.S. might intervene, or might not. I do not want any such thing! Even XiJinping doesn’t want to pay the tremendous price of a war or invasion. The Taiwanese also don’t want war. They trade with China. There are well over a million Taiwanese business people living on the mainland. And yet if the Chinese feel forced into a corner, facing a Cold War and a near total disruption of trade, or a Taiwan declaring independence and inviting U.S. ships to visit, or maybe a Western cut-off of oil supplies from the Gulf, they most definitely will act.

If the communist chinese feel forced into a corner because Taiwan is independent and free?

Screw them

if their bullying and bluffing tactics dont work they will just have to live with it

which they will as long as America remains strong and resolute

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

No

Former Prime Minister of Australia gives his view on the future of relations with china

Unfortunately while he tries to be non partisan, in the end he ends up thinking with his heart instead of his head

he does not think the communist dictatorship is evil, and in fact could be our friend if we just try harder to understand each other

Its 20 minutes and worth a listen

No. As soon as the adults are back in charge this will all blow over.

And by "adults" you mean as soon as the pussies and commie sellouts are back in charge?

Over your dead commie bodies.

.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

No

Former Prime Minister of Australia gives his view on the future of relations with china

Unfortunately while he tries to be non partisan, in the end he ends up thinking with his heart instead of his head

he does not think the communist dictatorship is evil, and in fact could be our friend if we just try harder to understand each other

Its 20 minutes and worth a listen

No. As soon as the adults are back in charge this will all blow over.

Of course by adult and blow over you mean once we get someone to capitulate to the Chinese they can win and it will be over.

 

[basquebromance]

pick a side, we're at war

Senator Rick Scott and I are on the good side!

USA! USA! USA! USA!

Sen. Rick Scott bill would protect coronavirus vaccine research from China

Sen. Rick Scott, R-Fla., joined several of his GOP Senate colleagues on Thursday in introducing legislation aimed at protecting America's coronavirus vaccine research, from the odious apparatus of China's communist government.

www.foxnews.com

 

[KGB]

West Berlin was inside Communist East Germany, yet we thought it was worth preserving...destroying communism is always in our interests...

If the Red Army marched into West Berlin any time in the 1950s after the USSR had the bomb, there was nothing we could have done. Also, only after the West German economy became much superior to East Germany, when the East Germans really seriously wanted to reunite, when Russia allowed it to do so under Gorbachev, was that reuniting possible. Of course if mainland Chinese are in the midst of a revolution to overthrow the CCP, the situation might be very different. As is, there is little or nothing we can realistically do if mainland China in five or ten years decides to squeeze Taiwan and force unification. China just dropped the word “peaceful” from its normal call for “peaceful reunification” across the straight of Taiwan. This is perhaps the first sign that the U.S.-China Cold War may bring sudden disaster to the people of Taiwan.

As for economic strength, the Soviet Union economy never surpassed perhaps 30% of the U.S. economy. China is already our equal. Its naval and air forces will soon be MUCH stronger than the U.S. in the East China (and South China) Sea.

The Soviets knew had they moved into West Berlin, a trip wire would have been crossed resulting in massive retaliation. That tactic worked there, it’s worked in Korea, & would work against China. To combat the Chinese in the South China Sea region, we need to hold over their head the idea of the US recognizing Taiwan as an independent state. That’s the key to fighting the leeches that are communist states. You have to be willing to play ante up. China is increasingly being seen as a pariah especially after they allowed this virus to spread through their incompetence, corruption, & stupidity. We will need to go back to a Cold War footing to rid the world of communism.