Aleksandr Baurov Soviet Heroe of Roma origins

[Mortimer]

https://eriac.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Posters-Roma-Resistance_ALEXANDR-BAUROV.pdf

Around 1920, Baurov started work at the Putilov factory as an assistant to a steelmaker. From 1925 to 1933 Baurov studied at the Electrotechnical Institute of Communications, and, after graduating, got a job as a laboratory assistant at the Academy of Communications. But art was not forgotten either. All this time, Alexander was also working in Lengosestrada in the evenings, playing guitar in a Roma ensemble. He even took his guitar, gifted to him by his good friend and master – Passerbsky – with him to the front. In short moments of respite, he played and sang for friends. Baurov volunteered for the front on the eighth day of the war. A good technical education allowed Baurov to occupy command positions. Initially, he was the head of the communications service in the Forty-Fourth Armoured Battalion, where he had the chance to defend the Pulkovo Heights. During the attack near Krasnoye Selo, he was wounded in the arm and shell-shocked. The orderlies pulled him out of the damaged tank. After recovering, Baurov fought in the 189th Infantry Division. After that, he was appointed chief of communications of the First Aeronautical Division. Photographs taken at the front give us an insight into the type of warfare the unit engaged in. The unit was responsible for sharing intelligence, specifically geographic information, for targeting enemy lines by shelling. The unit gathered the information by aerial cameras lifted by balloons into the sky, capturing photographs of enemy positions. The results were impressive: heavy © Nikolai Bessonov Foundation of Roma History and Culture Soviet shells destroyed German equipment, and their fortifications were broken, and eventually, the Germans rolled back under the pressure of the Red Army. Baurov’s unit would fight in the Karelian Campaign on the Karelian Isthmus, located on the FinnishRussian border, where he would be wounded a second time, receiving damage to his thigh. The bravery of Baurov, a Roma from Leningrad, was celebrated with both promotions and awards. In 1944 he was already a captain. His chest was decorated with the Order of the Red Star and the Red Battle Banner. Baurov also received the Order of Alexander Nevsky – an honourable and rare award – for his active participation in the battles during the Oder River crossing. In addition, he was awarded the Polish Cross of the Brave. Baurov enjoyed the victory in Leipzig, but his service did not end there. After the war, he was left in Germany to study German rocket science. And from 1949 to 1955, already an engineerlieutenant colonel, Baurov participated in creating and launching the first domestic missiles at the Kapustin Yar test site in the Astrakhan region. The veteran died on February 18, 1972. Materials about Baurov’s military career and rare front-line photographs are now in the Museum of the Defense and The Seige of Leningrad.

 

[luiza]

One swallow ( as in bird and also assuming it is all true ) does not make a summer .

 

[whitehall]

There is no (e) in hero.

 

[ozro]

I don't imagine I will ever get to the museum in Leningrad, so thanks for the mini lesson.

 

[Mushroom]

https://eriac.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Posters-Roma-Resistance_ALEXANDR-BAUROV.pdf

Around 1920, Baurov started work at the Putilov factory as an assistant to a steelmaker. From 1925 to 1933 Baurov studied at the Electrotechnical Institute of Communications, and, after graduating, got a job as a laboratory assistant at the Academy of Communications. But art was not forgotten either. All this time, Alexander was also working in Lengosestrada in the evenings, playing guitar in a Roma ensemble. He even took his guitar, gifted to him by his good friend and master – Passerbsky – with him to the front. In short moments of respite, he played and sang for friends. Baurov volunteered for the front on the eighth day of the war. A good technical education allowed Baurov to occupy command positions. Initially, he was the head of the communications service in the Forty-Fourth Armoured Battalion, where he had the chance to defend the Pulkovo Heights. During the attack near Krasnoye Selo, he was wounded in the arm and shell-shocked. The orderlies pulled him out of the damaged tank. After recovering, Baurov fought in the 189th Infantry Division. After that, he was appointed chief of communications of the First Aeronautical Division. Photographs taken at the front give us an insight into the type of warfare the unit engaged in. The unit was responsible for sharing intelligence, specifically geographic information, for targeting enemy lines by shelling. The unit gathered the information by aerial cameras lifted by balloons into the sky, capturing photographs of enemy positions. The results were impressive: heavy © Nikolai Bessonov Foundation of Roma History and Culture Soviet shells destroyed German equipment, and their fortifications were broken, and eventually, the Germans rolled back under the pressure of the Red Army. Baurov’s unit would fight in the Karelian Campaign on the Karelian Isthmus, located on the FinnishRussian border, where he would be wounded a second time, receiving damage to his thigh. The bravery of Baurov, a Roma from Leningrad, was celebrated with both promotions and awards. In 1944 he was already a captain. His chest was decorated with the Order of the Red Star and the Red Battle Banner. Baurov also received the Order of Alexander Nevsky – an honourable and rare award – for his active participation in the battles during the Oder River crossing. In addition, he was awarded the Polish Cross of the Brave. Baurov enjoyed the victory in Leipzig, but his service did not end there. After the war, he was left in Germany to study German rocket science. And from 1949 to 1955, already an engineerlieutenant colonel, Baurov participated in creating and launching the first domestic missiles at the Kapustin Yar test site in the Astrakhan region. The veteran died on February 18, 1972. Materials about Baurov’s military career and rare front-line photographs are now in the Museum of the Defense and The Seige of Leningrad.

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Hate to say this, but I kinda call almost all of this into question. I tried to look into this a bit more, and came up with damned near nothing. Just a reference back to this very PDF, and another that was the source of that PDF in Russian. Nothing else.

And the "Order of Alexander Nevsky" is hardly "an honorable and rare award", it literally was given to anybody who served in the military or government service for 20 years. And while it can be given for valor, it was awarded over 42,000 times during WWII for that reason. And in trying to look up the "Polish Cross of the Brave", I ran across something similar. That was an award that was issued by Poland from 1928-1940, and was not recognized by the Post-War Polish government because most of the recipients who earned it were fighting against the Germans or Soviets. However, there was a similar award called the "Cross of Valor", that was basically created by the Soviet run "Polish Army", and was awarded to Polish Soldiers who fought with the Soviet Army. And some 40,000 of that award were given also.

To give a comparison, one of the higher awards in the US military was the Distinguished Service Cross - Distinguished Flying Cross - Navy Cross (all the same award - only differing in branch of service the person belongs to). During WWII that was only awarded around 7,000 times. That actually does make it somewhat rare, and there are plentiful databases that can be checked to see who got it and why. All of the ones listed start in the 40,000 awardees and more, and that only takes into account those that got it during the war.

Sorry, but this is yet another one of those stories that I kinda have to call "bupkus" on. It sounded interesting, and I wanted to see if I could find out anything more about it. And pretty much found only self-referential links back to this very document. And when the "awards" listed both had the number of recipients in the range of 40,000 or more just in that conflict (and one only issued to Poles), I really have to question all of it.

Oh, that the "Order of the Red Star"? The same thing. Over 100,000 issued during the war, after the war it became a tradition award to any who had served in the military or government for 15 years. And the Order of the Red Banner, the same damned thing. Over 250,000 awarded during WWII (and it could be a personal or unit award). And after the war it became yet another of those service medals given to anybody who served for 15 years or more.

Hell, one of the most famous people who won the Order of the Red Banner was Vasili Blokhin. He was literally the Chief Executioner of the NKVD, and was given the award after he and a Company of executioners killed over 7,000 Poles in a week during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Poland. Specifically, he was the senior leader of the unit that conducted the Katyn Forest Massacre.

I even tried looking up the image above, same thing. All references pointed right back to the same document. And I pretty much dismiss most "circular claims", where the only source seems to be the very source being used to make the claims in the first place.

 

[Mortimer]

Hate to say this, but I kinda call almost all of this into question. I tried to look into this a bit more, and came up with damned near nothing. Just a reference back to this very PDF, and another that was the source of that PDF in Russian. Nothing else.

And the "Order of Alexander Nevsky" is hardly "an honorable and rare award", it literally was given to anybody who served in the military or government service for 20 years. And while it can be given for valor, it was awarded over 42,000 times during WWII for that reason. And in trying to look up the "Polish Cross of the Brave", I ran across something similar. That was an award that was issued by Poland from 1928-1940, and was not recognized by the Post-War Polish government because most of the recipients who earned it were fighting against the Germans or Soviets. However, there was a similar award called the "Cross of Valor", that was basically created by the Soviet run "Polish Army", and was awarded to Polish Soldiers who fought with the Soviet Army. And some 40,000 of that award were given also.

To give a comparison, one of the higher awards in the US military was the Distinguished Service Cross - Distinguished Flying Cross - Navy Cross (all the same award - only differing in branch of service the person belongs to). During WWII that was only awarded around 7,000 times. That actually does make it somewhat rare, and there are plentiful databases that can be checked to see who got it and why. All of the ones listed start in the 40,000 awardees and more, and that only takes into account those that got it during the war.

Sorry, but this is yet another one of those stories that I kinda have to call "bupkus" on. It sounded interesting, and I wanted to see if I could find out anything more about it. And pretty much found only self-referential links back to this very document. And when the "awards" listed both had the number of recipients in the range of 40,000 or more just in that conflict (and one only issued to Poles), I really have to question all of it.

Oh, that the "Order of the Red Star"? The same thing. Over 100,000 issued during the war, after the war it became a tradition award to any who had served in the military or government for 15 years. And the Order of the Red Banner, the same damned thing. Over 250,000 awarded during WWII (and it could be a personal or unit award). And after the war it became yet another of those service medals given to anybody who served for 15 years or more.

Hell, one of the most famous people who won the Order of the Red Banner was Vasili Blokhin. He was literally the Chief Executioner of the NKVD, and was given the award after he and a Company of executioners killed over 7,000 Poles in a week during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Poland. Specifically, he was the senior leader of the unit that conducted the Katyn Forest Massacre.

I even tried looking up the image above, same thing. All references pointed right back to the same document. And I pretty much dismiss most "circular claims", where the only source seems to be the very source being used to make the claims in the first place.

You call into a question because he is Roma right? You cannot imagine a Roma serving in the Army right? That is what is about? If I said he was Polish you probably wouldnt even bother asking for more sources. Just as reference almost all of my ancestors, like my father, my grandfathers, my granduncles served in the Army in Yugoslavia one of them was a Captain and spoke several languages, he was the Uncle of my Mum. So I do not doubt by one second that many Roma served in the Army, always did before world war 2 too. Also you say it is not of value that he received those orders in your second part of the comment. A) You say it is not true and B) if it is true it doesnt meany anything because many received that.... I think you only try to minimise it or deny it because he is Roma.

 

[Mortimer]

Hate to say this, but I kinda call almost all of this into question. I tried to look into this a bit more, and came up with damned near nothing. Just a reference back to this very PDF, and another that was the source of that PDF in Russian. Nothing else.

And the "Order of Alexander Nevsky" is hardly "an honorable and rare award", it literally was given to anybody who served in the military or government service for 20 years. And while it can be given for valor, it was awarded over 42,000 times during WWII for that reason. And in trying to look up the "Polish Cross of the Brave", I ran across something similar. That was an award that was issued by Poland from 1928-1940, and was not recognized by the Post-War Polish government because most of the recipients who earned it were fighting against the Germans or Soviets. However, there was a similar award called the "Cross of Valor", that was basically created by the Soviet run "Polish Army", and was awarded to Polish Soldiers who fought with the Soviet Army. And some 40,000 of that award were given also.

To give a comparison, one of the higher awards in the US military was the Distinguished Service Cross - Distinguished Flying Cross - Navy Cross (all the same award - only differing in branch of service the person belongs to). During WWII that was only awarded around 7,000 times. That actually does make it somewhat rare, and there are plentiful databases that can be checked to see who got it and why. All of the ones listed start in the 40,000 awardees and more, and that only takes into account those that got it during the war.

Sorry, but this is yet another one of those stories that I kinda have to call "bupkus" on. It sounded interesting, and I wanted to see if I could find out anything more about it. And pretty much found only self-referential links back to this very document. And when the "awards" listed both had the number of recipients in the range of 40,000 or more just in that conflict (and one only issued to Poles), I really have to question all of it.

Oh, that the "Order of the Red Star"? The same thing. Over 100,000 issued during the war, after the war it became a tradition award to any who had served in the military or government for 15 years. And the Order of the Red Banner, the same damned thing. Over 250,000 awarded during WWII (and it could be a personal or unit award). And after the war it became yet another of those service medals given to anybody who served for 15 years or more.

Hell, one of the most famous people who won the Order of the Red Banner was Vasili Blokhin. He was literally the Chief Executioner of the NKVD, and was given the award after he and a Company of executioners killed over 7,000 Poles in a week during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Poland. Specifically, he was the senior leader of the unit that conducted the Katyn Forest Massacre.

I even tried looking up the image above, same thing. All references pointed right back to the same document. And I pretty much dismiss most "circular claims", where the only source seems to be the very source being used to make the claims in the first place.

The PDF mentions as source
Sources and further information: 1. The biography is based on the materials of N. Bessonov’s documentary research, “Roma tragedy 1941- 1945: facts, documents, memories. The armed resistance,” [Бессонов Н.В. Цыганская трагедия 1941- 1945: факты, документы, воспоминания. Том 2. Вооружённый отпор СПб.: Шатра, 2010. — 375 с.], pp. 166-172

 

[luiza]

There is no (e) in hero.

So why did you spell it with the letter "e" included ?And what makes you prefer , "hro"? Just pulling your leg .

 

[Mushroom]

You call into a question because he is Roma right?

Where in the frack are you pulling that out of? Thin air, or your arse?

I said why, that there is basically not a single thing to back this up with. Just this PDF, and the reference which was in Russian. I did a lot of searching, and came up with absolutely nothing else. Not by that name, or by any other variation of the name that did not refer back to the exact same references. That and the one in Russian.

I could not care if he was a Gypsy, a Zulu, an Irish potato farmer or anything else. When such a story seems to appear out of nowhere and then absolutely no other records to the facts, accuracy, or anything else can be found it raises it all into question. On top of that, stating that he got an award that was "rare" which in actuality was awarded to over 40,000 others shows that they are either bullshitting, or trying to blow smoke.

Then the other award, which was created for and only given to Polish soldiers who were from Poland and fighting in the Soviet made Polish Army. Why would a Soviet soldier be given an award created by a puppet military of an occupied nation that was only given to their own soldiers? It simply makes no sense.

I did not actually set out to try and "bust" this claim, it sounded interesting but the way it was written was so poor I wanted to hopefully find a version of these events that was better written and had more actual information in it. However, that is when I ran into the facts that nobody else had this story. Nowhere, as far as everywhere else he simply does not seem to exist. Then the things like describing fairly common awards as "rare" and being given a foreign award created for another nation also simply made no sense.

But please, let me know of any source that is not the one you posted and the one they referenced. And yes, I had read that original "article" as well, the one you posted was really nothing more than a basic translation of the original. Posting the copy of a source that can not be corroborated anywhere else.

 

[Mortimer]

Where in the frack are you pulling that out of? Thin air, or your arse?

I said why, that there is basically not a single thing to back this up with. Just this PDF, and the reference which was in Russian. I did a lot of searching, and came up with absolutely nothing else. Not by that name, or by any other variation of the name that did not refer back to the exact same references. That and the one in Russian.

I could not care if he was a Gypsy, a Zulu, an Irish potato farmer or anything else. When such a story seems to appear out of nowhere and then absolutely no other records to the facts, accuracy, or anything else can be found it raises it all into question. On top of that, stating that he got an award that was "rare" which in actuality was awarded to over 40,000 others shows that they are either bullshitting, or trying to blow smoke.

Then the other award, which was created for and only given to Polish soldiers who were from Poland and fighting in the Soviet made Polish Army. Why would a Soviet soldier be given an award created by a puppet military of an occupied nation that was only given to their own soldiers? It simply makes no sense.

I did not actually set out to try and "bust" this claim, it sounded interesting but the way it was written was so poor I wanted to hopefully find a version of these events that was better written and had more actual information in it. However, that is when I ran into the facts that nobody else had this story. Nowhere, as far as everywhere else he simply does not seem to exist. Then the things like describing fairly common awards as "rare" and being given a foreign award created for another nation also simply made no sense.

But please, let me know of any source that is not the one you posted and the one they referenced. And yes, I had read that original "article" as well, the one you posted was really nothing more than a basic translation of the original. Posting the copy of a source that can not be corroborated anywhere else.

Maybe there are not many other sources, especially western sources or in english because roma history is not documented, often roma hide their heritage or didnt communicated it especially if they are half roma or something, and b soviet history is probably not really that well documented in the west. the source says history is published in the museum of leningrad or something, so it is verfiable if you go there, or buy the book in russian or speak russian.

 

[Mushroom]

Maybe there are not many other sources, especially western sources or in english because roma history is not documented, often roma hide their heritage or didnt communicated it especially if they are half roma or something, and b soviet history is probably not really that well documented in the west. the source says history is published in the museum of leningrad or something, so it is verfiable if you go there, or buy the book in russian or speak russian.

Or maybe it is all made up.

Myself, with no information anywhere else on this, I am betting on this.

Oh, and I did not need to "buy the book", I told you I already read it.

http://romagenocide.com.ua/data/files/bibliography/Bessonov_vooruzhenniy-otpor.pdf

There, that is the reference used. Why do you think I commented already that the PDF you posted is just an almost word for word bad translation of the original source? Feel free to look yourself, it is page 166 and 167. And that apparently is the only reference for that entire tale. If I had ever tried to turn in a historical paper that only had a single reference it would have been tossed out immediately. Especially if the author of the source was not even a historian but an artist with apparently no actual background in history, and even his own published works (he wrote 3 books) have very questionable or unverified references themselves.

And even trying that "it is not documented" is a pure copout. Somebody could make a claim that Hitler was really an African woman that used a lot of makeup. And just by saying "it's not documented" is the ultimate in trying to ignore any serious questions. And I did look into this wanting to find out more. But the fact that there was nothing more available led me to a rabbit hole of more questions and no answers at all.

Oh, and I did look up sources that were "not Western". Which is what caused me to spend a lot of time chasing down scientific papers by Yuriy Alexeevich Baurov, and mathematical papers by Nikolai Bessonov. What you think searches for some reason ignores sources that are not "Western"?

And for goodness sakes, learn how to proofread. Reading your posts is almost painful.

 

[Mortimer]

Or maybe it is all made up.

Myself, with no information anywhere else on this, I am betting on this.

Oh, and I did not need to "buy the book", I told you I already read it.

http://romagenocide.com.ua/data/files/bibliography/Bessonov_vooruzhenniy-otpor.pdf

There, that is the reference used. Why do you think I commented already that the PDF you posted is just an almost word for word bad translation of the original source? Feel free to look yourself, it is page 166 and 167. And that apparently is the only reference for that entire tale. If I had ever tried to turn in a historical paper that only had a single reference it would have been tossed out immediately. Especially if the author of the source was not even a historian but an artist with apparently no actual background in history, and even his own published works (he wrote 3 books) have very questionable or unverified references themselves.

And even trying that "it is not documented" is a pure copout. Somebody could make a claim that Hitler was really an African woman that used a lot of makeup. And just by saying "it's not documented" is the ultimate in trying to ignore any serious questions. And I did look into this wanting to find out more. But the fact that there was nothing more available led me to a rabbit hole of more questions and no answers at all.

Oh, and I did look up sources that were "not Western". Which is what caused me to spend a lot of time chasing down scientific papers by Yuriy Alexeevich Baurov, and mathematical papers by Nikolai Bessonov. What you think searches for some reason ignores sources that are not "Western"?

And for goodness sakes, learn how to proofread. Reading your posts is almost painful.

But why would the author make it up? I wont also not make it about one single man, lets say it is made up do you think there were no roma in army or ever received a order for bravery or were good soldiers? Do you think this is also made up that these soldiers were roma... in the german army?

Do you think no roma ever was in a army or got a order? Do you think when I say that ancestry of roma persons is not well documented or mentioned, even if they did had such ancestry, is the same as claiming hitler was a african woman? Do you think what im saying is wrong, that ancestry of roma is not well documented historically?

Do you think this is also made up.... sintiundroma.org | „Rassendiagnose: Zigeuner“

 

[Mushroom]

But why would the author make it up? I wont also not make it about one single man, lets say it is made up do you think there were no roma in army or ever received a order for bravery or were good soldiers? Do you think this is also made up that these soldiers were roma... in the german army?

Wow, you just scream in all kinds of random directions, don't you?

I could not care less he or anybody else was Roma, or Gypsy (Romani) to most people. All that matters is that this claim can not be verified in any way. And you are somehow taking that as some kind of personal attack on all of that grouping, which is absolutely nothing like I have ever said.

And for God's sake, it's "Roma", not "roma". You capitalize the name as it is a proper noun and refers to a group of people. Just as you should capitalize "German". As for Gypsy or Romani soldiers in the "German Army", that is an almost moronic question, as it depends on when you are talking about. I expect there were some in the German Army of WWII, likely about as many who were Jews were in the German Army in WWII. And no, that is not a rhetorical statement, over 150,000 Jews served in the Army of WWII Germany. So likely a similar percentage of Romani served as well.

If you want to actually have a conversation on this, that is fine. But if you are going to fly off the handle and try to make claims that I said things I in no way said or inferred, there is no reason to continue this at all.

Oh, and on the end link, so what? What does that have to do with the claims of Alexandr Baurov?

 

[Mortimer]

Wow, you just scream in all kinds of random directions, don't you?

I could not care less he or anybody else was Roma, or Gypsy (Romani) to most people. All that matters is that this claim can not be verified in any way. And you are somehow taking that as some kind of personal attack on all of that grouping, which is absolutely nothing like I have ever said.

And for God's sake, it's "Roma", not "roma". You capitalize the name as it is a proper noun and refers to a group of people. Just as you should capitalize "German". As for Gypsy or Romani soldiers in the "German Army", that is an almost moronic question, as it depends on when you are talking about. I expect there were some in the German Army of WWII, likely about as many who were Jews were in the German Army in WWII. And no, that is not a rhetorical statement, over 150,000 Jews served in the Army of WWII Germany. So likely a similar percentage of Romani served as well.

If you want to actually have a conversation on this, that is fine. But if you are going to fly off the handle and try to make claims that I said things I in no way said or inferred, there is no reason to continue this at all.

Oh, and on the end link, so what? What does that have to do with the claims of Alexandr Baurov?

The author researched it and made a documentary, i added the source and the link. I dont think he would have made it up. Also it was not that long ago, to need to make it up like about ancient egypt or something which was 5000 years ago. That dude probably existed, i dont think the author would have made it up. I added the source, you dont believe the source, that is your problem. But it is not true there is no source. He even has his pictures and said who his family was, like artistic roma family etc. that should be easy verififable. If it is in the museum of leningrad or something it is probably true. That is what i know.