CDZ Actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. -- You must understand this to be credible re: "Email-gate"

The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.


320 , in 2008 BRYAN NISHIMURA plead guilty to a misdemeanor for storing classified material on his private electronic device. Meaning he plead guilty to a crime, meaning he was charged with a crime. How did they charge him with a CRIME if it wasn't ILLEGAL?

And Comey himself said Clinton was NEGLIGENT in the way she handled classified material. Negligent with classified material equals a crime as per the statute.
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.

Right here...

permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust.

She put classiffied information on a private, unsecured server.......out of State Department..........
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.


320 , in 2008 BRYAN NISHIMURA plead guilty to a misdemeanor for storing classified material on his private electronic device. Meaning he plead guilty to a crime, meaning he was charged with a crime. How did they charge him with a CRIME if it wasn't ILLEGAL?

And Comey himself said Clinton was NEGLIGENT in the way she handled classified material. Negligent with classified material equals a crime as per the statute.


Why is it that I need to do the research to find out the answer to your question? Why can't you ask yourself that question and go looking for the answer? You can see from my posts in this and the other thread I created on this topic that I've done a fair bit of "homework" to discern the basis for Dir. Comey and the FBI's recommendation.

Out of nothing other than pure courtesy, here's the answer:
FWIW, all I did to get that answer was put Mr. Nishimura's name into my search bar. The very first result (non news) that came up is the one that provided the answer noted above. Please tell me you cannot see the difference between what Mr. Nishimura did and what Mrs. Clinton did and that I don't have to "spell it out" for you.
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.


320 , in 2008 BRYAN NISHIMURA plead guilty to a misdemeanor for storing classified material on his private electronic device. Meaning he plead guilty to a crime, meaning he was charged with a crime. How did they charge him with a CRIME if it wasn't ILLEGAL?

And Comey himself said Clinton was NEGLIGENT in the way she handled classified material. Negligent with classified material equals a crime as per the statute.


Why is it that I need to do the research to find out the answer to your question? Why can't you ask yourself that question and go looking for the answer? You can see from my posts in this and the other thread I created on this topic that I've done a fair bit of "homework" to discern the basis for Dir. Comey and the FBI's recommendation.

Out of nothing other than pure courtesy, here's the answer:
FWIW, all I did to get that answer was put Mr. Nishimura's name into my search bar. The very first result (non news) that came up is the one that provided the answer noted above. Please tell me you cannot see the difference between what Mr. Nishimura did and what Mrs. Clinton did and that I don't have to "spell it out" for you.


She put classified information on a private server......that is how you spell it out.......it was an unclassified electronic device...one or more personal servers without any State Department security...comey stated that.....

She and her staff did exactly what Nishimura did, and it is right from your quote...
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.


320 , in 2008 BRYAN NISHIMURA plead guilty to a misdemeanor for storing classified material on his private electronic device. Meaning he plead guilty to a crime, meaning he was charged with a crime. How did they charge him with a CRIME if it wasn't ILLEGAL?

And Comey himself said Clinton was NEGLIGENT in the way she handled classified material. Negligent with classified material equals a crime as per the statute.


Why is it that I need to do the research to find out the answer to your question? Why can't you ask yourself that question and go looking for the answer? You can see from my posts in this and the other thread I created on this topic that I've done a fair bit of "homework" to discern the basis for Dir. Comey and the FBI's recommendation.

Out of nothing other than pure courtesy, here's the answer:
FWIW, all I did to get that answer was put Mr. Nishimura's name into my search bar. The very first result (non news) that came up is the one that provided the answer noted above. Please tell me you cannot see the difference between what Mr. Nishimura did and what Mrs. Clinton did and that I don't have to "spell it out" for you.


There is ZERO difference between what they did. BOTH downloaded classified material to their unclassified personal electronic devices.

You are better than denying that fact.
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.

Right here...

permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust.

She put classiffied information on a private, unsecured server.......out of State Department..........

See post #23. It provides an illustration of "removed from its proper place of custody."
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.

Right here...

permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust.

She put classiffied information on a private, unsecured server.......out of State Department..........

See post #23. It provides an illustration of "removed from its proper place of custody."


Yeah...I read it....they both did the exact same thing.......and with a real prosecution you could easily establish intent to hide her actions........as the Republicans are showing in their questioning of Comey.......

You can deny that they did the same thing....but they did the same thing.....she did it to hide illegal activity...
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.

Right here...

permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust.

She put classiffied information on a private, unsecured server.......out of State Department..........

See post #23. It provides an illustration of "removed from its proper place of custody."


How is this different from what she did?

"Nishimura had access to classified briefings and digital records that could only be retained and viewed on authorized government computers. Nishimura, however, caused the materials to be downloaded and stored on his personal, unclassified electronic devices and storage media.

She had an off the books personal server, more than one, and several electronic devices that the State Department didn't know about........please...explain the difference....
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.

Right here...

permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust.

She put classiffied information on a private, unsecured server.......out of State Department..........

See post #23. It provides an illustration of "removed from its proper place of custody."


Correct, and she removed emails from their proper place of custody when she removed .gov email and replaced it with her own server.

If YOU did exactly what Hillary did and got caught you'd be in jail.

Have you ever held a security clearance? Starting in 2003/4 when email really started being a thing the FBI really stepped up in notifying people NOT to use private email for government business. Even unclassified government business, but ESPECIALLY for classified material.

Your argument is just stupid all the way around. I realize this is the CDZ, but that doesn't make this argument any more stupid. If using a classified server to send and store classified material isn't important , then why the fuck does the government even have classified servers to begin with?

Let's use this analogy. Let's suppose you work for the CIA and you call someone on your private cell phone and you tell them something that is classified (let's assume the other person has a security clearance for said information) did you break the law? I mean , did you remove the classified material from it's proper place of storage? Why yes, yes you did, your personal cell phone is not the proper place to have a classified conversation.
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:
It's clear her intent was to keep her communications hidden from judicial or congressional oversight.
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.

Right here...

permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust.

She put classiffied information on a private, unsecured server.......out of State Department..........

See post #23. It provides an illustration of "removed from its proper place of custody."


How is this different from what she did?

"Nishimura had access to classified briefings and digital records that could only be retained and viewed on authorized government computers. Nishimura, however, caused the materials to be downloaded and stored on his personal, unclassified electronic devices and storage media.

She had an off the books personal server, more than one, and several electronic devices that the State Department didn't know about........please...explain the difference....


There is no difference, 320 just morphed into a troll right before our eyes.
 
The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty. That is the meaning of the title sentence, and in common legal thought and parlance, the two central concepts of that statement are referred to as "mens rea" and "actus rea." The overall idea is fundamental to U.S. jurisprudential theory, and every lawyer and every CPA knows it. But that's legal theory. What are the implications in legal practice? In short, it means that in aiming to obtain a conviction for a non-strict liability crime (one that requires only actus rea), a prosecutor must prove, among other things, that the defendant intended to break the law s/he is charged with breaking, that is, mens rea must be shown in addition to actus rea.

Following FBI Director James Comey's announcement that the FBI is not recommending Mrs. Clinton be charged with crimes pursuant to violations of U.S. Law (not Departmental rules and procedures, which unless supported by an Executive Order, don't have the force of law) [see Note 1 at the end of this post], there has been a lot of kvetching. Republicans, in response, cry foul, saying, "It's clear as day that she violated the law. Dir. Comey laid out the ways in which she did so, yet no indictment is recommended. That's wrong."

Is it really wrong? It's not, and the following paragraphs explain why it's not. Why it's not has nothing to do with my opinion; it has everything to do with the burden of proof a prosecutor must meet to win a conviction, and absent revising the principles that govern U.S. law, that burden of proof isn't going to change.

Well, let's look at some of the laws that Mrs. Clinton may have violated:
  • 18 U.S. Code § 1924 -- Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material:

    Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

  • 18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

    Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information —

    (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or

    (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or

    (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes —

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Looking at the two laws noted above, one notices that both are potentially in-scope and that both statutes require mens rea be shown. That settled, the next question is "did she commit acts that violated the provisions of either; is actus rea present?"

In terms of an actus rea having happened, there's no question. Mrs. Clinton did email classified information using her personal email account. That's been laid out in "black and white," and there's really nothing to argue about there, at least not among folks having any sense there's not. That leaves the element of mens rea to be established.

In determining whether mens rea exists, I, like everyone who was not directly part of the FBI investigation, have to rely on the people who were knowing how to do their job and actually doing it well and objectively when they reviewed the evidence. [See Note 2] Dir. Comey quite plainly stated yesterday that the FBI did not find evidence that Mrs. Clinton intended to break the law.

The lack of intent is why Dir. Comey remarked that no "reasonable prosecutor" would pursue this case to trial. Why? Because "reasonable prosecutors" know they don't have evidence to prove a mens rea, and they know they must have it. Lacking it, pursuing the case in court is a waste of the court's time, taxpayers' resources, and an undue burden on the defendant.

Why else might Dir. Comey have used the term "reasonable prosecutor?" Well, for one thing, he's a Republican -- a fact many folks seem to have forgotten, don't know, or just outright ignore -- so from a partisan standpoint, his views of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy are unlikely to be favorable. That said, he's also a law enforcement officer and attorney; thus, party notwithstanding, he must follow the letter and spirit of the law. He must follow its principles.

Make no mistake, however. Though he had to admit that there's no case to make in criminally prosecuting Mrs. Clinton, thereby giving her and Democrats the "bone" they most wanted, he also tossed a huge "bone" to the GOP: he "read" Mrs. Clinton "up one side and down the other," giving the GOP plenty of fodder for attacking Hillary Clinton for the remainder of the campaign. (From what I heard on PBS Newshour, it's highly irregular for the FBI to disclose its findings and recommendations to the DOJ in an investigation, to say nothing of commenting on and explaining them.)


Notes:
  1. I've proposed this code section because it seems to make sense to me to be the primary one considered, but I don't know or know of every statute pertaining to the handling of classified information. As far as I know, neither the FBI nor the DOJ have not identified the U.S. Code sections that it considered Mrs. Clinton may have violated. Accordingly, my proposed code section(s) above and anyone else's are purely suppositions. In any case, I trust the FBI and Dir. Comey know all the possible code sections that may or do apply to Mrs. Clinton's actions.
  2. At some point, the FBI/DOJ may release the evidence in the case. Until that happens, everything about what it shows and does not show is purely speculation on my, your, and others' part.

References:

Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.


320 , in 2008 BRYAN NISHIMURA plead guilty to a misdemeanor for storing classified material on his private electronic device. Meaning he plead guilty to a crime, meaning he was charged with a crime. How did they charge him with a CRIME if it wasn't ILLEGAL?

And Comey himself said Clinton was NEGLIGENT in the way she handled classified material. Negligent with classified material equals a crime as per the statute.


Why is it that I need to do the research to find out the answer to your question? Why can't you ask yourself that question and go looking for the answer? You can see from my posts in this and the other thread I created on this topic that I've done a fair bit of "homework" to discern the basis for Dir. Comey and the FBI's recommendation.

Out of nothing other than pure courtesy, here's the answer:
FWIW, all I did to get that answer was put Mr. Nishimura's name into my search bar. The very first result (non news) that came up is the one that provided the answer noted above. Please tell me you cannot see the difference between what Mr. Nishimura did and what Mrs. Clinton did and that I don't have to "spell it out" for you.


She put classified information on a private server......that is how you spell it out.......it was an unclassified electronic device...one or more personal servers without any State Department security...comey stated that.....

She and her staff did exactly what Nishimura did, and it is right from your quote...

Anyone can plainly see that downloading and storing is not the same as discussing, but you apparently feel they are the same things. That's a very loose construction/interpretation of the language of Subsection 793(f).

Off Topic but relevant to your remark:
You are free to prefer loose constructionist stance on the "Email-gate" matter. Accordingly and by inference, I thus classify you as and hold you accountable to being in principle a loose constructionist. I bid you don't let me see you arguing for a strict interpretation of other legal statutes for if I do, I will rightly brand you as a generally unprincipled thinker/person. If you deny my assertion to that effect, I'll reference this post.

The thing is I don't need to wait to brand you as unprincipled. The most obvious topic for which I can identify with regard to you whereby your stated approach to legal interpretation is strict constructionist is the gun rights/control topic. I know that you are on the "gun rights" side and we all know that literally every basis for the "gun rights" (conservative) position pertaining to the gun debate derives from a strict constructionist stance re: the 2nd Amendment. The Constitution literally says, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, and those words are taken literally to mean that no laws may be passed that somehow or in any way infringe upon one's ability to obtain and own firearms of any classification.

One might wonder what my position in the gun debate. Well here it is (link provided for each bullet point):
One can see that my approach -- better tracking of guns that are produced and purchased -- to the gun debate doesn't deal with whether one can or cannot buy a gun, but rather with what one does with the gun after obtaining it. My position therefore doesn't expose itself to the matter of strictly or loosely construing "shall not infringe." I've long said that the general problem I have with Republicans and Democrats, thus why I'm an Independent, is that neither (or both if you prefer) refuse to consistently apply a given set of principles. They both "cherry pick" what they want from laws and ideas. They both laud and apply a given principle "here" but discard the very same principle "there." I find that unacceptable because it's unprincipled.
 
Title 18 code 793 of the US code is one of the few federal laws that doesn't require intent.

In fact Section F SPECIFICALLY makes gross negligence a crime

(f)
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

No matter what section you post this in, you're still an idiot if you don't recognize that that is the law.


Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.


320 , in 2008 BRYAN NISHIMURA plead guilty to a misdemeanor for storing classified material on his private electronic device. Meaning he plead guilty to a crime, meaning he was charged with a crime. How did they charge him with a CRIME if it wasn't ILLEGAL?

And Comey himself said Clinton was NEGLIGENT in the way she handled classified material. Negligent with classified material equals a crime as per the statute.


Why is it that I need to do the research to find out the answer to your question? Why can't you ask yourself that question and go looking for the answer? You can see from my posts in this and the other thread I created on this topic that I've done a fair bit of "homework" to discern the basis for Dir. Comey and the FBI's recommendation.

Out of nothing other than pure courtesy, here's the answer:
FWIW, all I did to get that answer was put Mr. Nishimura's name into my search bar. The very first result (non news) that came up is the one that provided the answer noted above. Please tell me you cannot see the difference between what Mr. Nishimura did and what Mrs. Clinton did and that I don't have to "spell it out" for you.


She put classified information on a private server......that is how you spell it out.......it was an unclassified electronic device...one or more personal servers without any State Department security...comey stated that.....

She and her staff did exactly what Nishimura did, and it is right from your quote...

Anyone can plainly see that downloading and storing is not the same as discussing, but you apparently feel they are the same things. That's a very loose construction/interpretation of the language of Subsection 793(f).

Off Topic but relevant to your remark:
You are free to prefer loose constructionist stance on the "Email-gate" matter. Accordingly and by inference, I thus classify you as and hold you accountable to being in principle a loose constructionist. I bid you don't let me see you arguing for a strict interpretation of other legal statutes for if I do, I will rightly brand you as a generally unprincipled thinker/person. If you deny my assertion to that effect, I'll reference this post.

The thing is I don't need to wait to brand you as unprincipled. The most obvious topic for which I can identify with regard to you whereby your stated approach to legal interpretation is strict constructionist is the gun rights/control topic. I know that you are on the "gun rights" side and we all know that literally every basis for the "gun rights" (conservative) position pertaining to the gun debate derives from a strict constructionist stance re: the 2nd Amendment. The Constitution literally says, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, and those words are taken literally to mean that no laws may be passed that somehow or in any way infringe upon one's ability to obtain and own firearms of any classification.

One might wonder what my position in the gun debate. Well here it is (link provided for each bullet point):
One can see that my approach -- better tracking of guns that are produced and purchased -- to the gun debate doesn't deal with whether one can or cannot buy a gun, but rather with what one does with the gun after obtaining it. My position therefore doesn't expose itself to the matter of strictly or loosely construing "shall not infringe." I've long said that the general problem I have with Republicans and Democrats, thus why I'm an Independent, is that neither (or both if you prefer) refuse to consistently apply a given set of principles. They both "cherry pick" what they want from laws and ideas. They both laud and apply a given principle "here" but discard the very same principle "there." I find that unacceptable because it's unprincipled.


Dude, she CLEARLY stored classified material on a non secure server, IE an unapproved space. Get real.
 
Read the statute carefully...I'll simplify it for you:
First, you'll note that the U.S. Code section is 18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. The specific language of Subsection 793(f), says:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document....or information, relating to the national defense,...through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.​

For someone to be convicted under Subsection 793(f), one would have to remove a document/information from its place of custody or delivered to someone not authorized to receive it.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was removed from it's proper place of custody? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that the government has lost any classified information or that any was removed from its proper place of custody.
      • An email repository/system is not a "proper place of custody" for documents or information and it is not a place of information creation, nor is an email repository/system a place of original document creation, other than for emails. People who have access to information pertaining to their job will necessarily discuss that information. Email is used to discuss information that exists elsewhere; it's a mode of conversation.
  • What clear evidence is there that a document or information was delivered to someone who should not have received it? None.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton's email system or documents were hacked or accessed by anyone who lacked authorization to access to it.
    • There is no clear evidence that Mrs. Clinton was what might be called a "double agent" who delivered information.
  • "National defense" -- Strictly speaking, this refers to the ability of the armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the nation and the lives of its people. Absent knowing what the content of the email discussions were, I have no way to know whether the classified information discussed in the emails pertained to national defense.
Given the above, the violation must be within the scope of the Code itself, that is, it must pertain to defense information, information related to the armed forces. As noted, whether the information/document pertains to the armed forces is determined by the content of the document or information. Assuming the violation is within the scope of Subsection 793(f), the next thing a prosecutor must do is produce clear evidence that the Code has in fact been violated. Given the "gross negligence" standard, that clear evidence need only be of actus rea, that is that the violation occurred, not that a person intended to commit the act, knew they were committing the act, and so on.

According to Dir. Comey, the FBI, even assuming email content pertains to national defense/armed forces, quite simply did not find clear evidence that information/documents were removed from it's proper place of custody and it did not find that someone received classified information/documents from Mrs. Clinton.

Despite what you and others want to be so, Dir. Comey and his team at the FBI have repeatedly noted that the prosecutability of Mrs. Clinton revolves around both actus rea and mens rea. In other words, there must be evidence of the act and the intent. Now given that Subsection 793(f) does not require mens rea, one must infer that Subsection 793(f) isn't the Code section that applied to Mrs. Clinton's acts. Why? Because she didn't do what the Code subsection say she'd need to have done in order to be in violation of it.

So, what is going on such that folks are citing Subsection 793(f)'s gross negligence in connection with what Mrs. Clinton did? Well, from what I can tell, folks want to see her prosecuted for violating the provisions of Subsections 1924 and 798 by applying only the gross negligence standard of 793(f) to the commission of the acts in those other two subsections, and do so without also applying the mens rea standard of those other two sections. Well, that's just not how the law works. One does not get to "cherry pick" the provisions of one Code section and mesh them with the burden of proof from another.

Sidebar:
It is worth noting the following regarding mens rea:
While the nomenclature used by federal courts varies widely, mens rea is generally categorized in descending order of culpability as follows:
  1. Specific intent, perhaps the highest level of intent, requires conduct that is "knowing, purposeful, and willful" as well as factual knowledge of the law or regulation;
  2. General intent, where the conduct is "knowing," that is, the person may not know that the conduct was against the law, but intentionally committed the act in question;
  3. Negligence, where the person failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the conduct, or was "willfully blind," "consciously avoided," or "reckless" regarding the consequences of their conduct; and
  4. Strict liability, where criminal liability can be imposed even though the actor had no mens rea or intent to commit the offense, and was not negligent. [What the GOP want to do re: Mrs. Clinton is confound, transform and pursue prosecution of specific intent acts as strict liability acts.]
The Model Penal Code (MPC) has categorized criminal intent, from most to least culpable, as follows: (1) purpose, (2) knowledge, (3) recklessness, (4) negligence, and (5) strict liability. As the Supreme Court has noted, "`purpose' corresponds loosely with the common-law concept of specific intent, while `knowledge' corresponds loosely with the concept of general intent." While most States have adopted the MPC's classifications of mens rea, Congress has not done so, thus leaving the federal law in this area more confusing than it need be. (See also Kenneth W. Simons, "Should the Model Penal Code's Mens Rea Provisions Be Amended?")
End of sidebar.​
End of sidebar.


320 , in 2008 BRYAN NISHIMURA plead guilty to a misdemeanor for storing classified material on his private electronic device. Meaning he plead guilty to a crime, meaning he was charged with a crime. How did they charge him with a CRIME if it wasn't ILLEGAL?

And Comey himself said Clinton was NEGLIGENT in the way she handled classified material. Negligent with classified material equals a crime as per the statute.


Why is it that I need to do the research to find out the answer to your question? Why can't you ask yourself that question and go looking for the answer? You can see from my posts in this and the other thread I created on this topic that I've done a fair bit of "homework" to discern the basis for Dir. Comey and the FBI's recommendation.

Out of nothing other than pure courtesy, here's the answer:
FWIW, all I did to get that answer was put Mr. Nishimura's name into my search bar. The very first result (non news) that came up is the one that provided the answer noted above. Please tell me you cannot see the difference between what Mr. Nishimura did and what Mrs. Clinton did and that I don't have to "spell it out" for you.


She put classified information on a private server......that is how you spell it out.......it was an unclassified electronic device...one or more personal servers without any State Department security...comey stated that.....

She and her staff did exactly what Nishimura did, and it is right from your quote...

Anyone can plainly see that downloading and storing is not the same as discussing, but you apparently feel they are the same things. That's a very loose construction/interpretation of the language of Subsection 793(f).

Off Topic but relevant to your remark:
You are free to prefer loose constructionist stance on the "Email-gate" matter. Accordingly and by inference, I thus classify you as and hold you accountable to being in principle a loose constructionist. I bid you don't let me see you arguing for a strict interpretation of other legal statutes for if I do, I will rightly brand you as a generally unprincipled thinker/person. If you deny my assertion to that effect, I'll reference this post.

The thing is I don't need to wait to brand you as unprincipled. The most obvious topic for which I can identify with regard to you whereby your stated approach to legal interpretation is strict constructionist is the gun rights/control topic. I know that you are on the "gun rights" side and we all know that literally every basis for the "gun rights" (conservative) position pertaining to the gun debate derives from a strict constructionist stance re: the 2nd Amendment. The Constitution literally says, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, and those words are taken literally to mean that no laws may be passed that somehow or in any way infringe upon one's ability to obtain and own firearms of any classification.

One might wonder what my position in the gun debate. Well here it is (link provided for each bullet point):
One can see that my approach -- better tracking of guns that are produced and purchased -- to the gun debate doesn't deal with whether one can or cannot buy a gun, but rather with what one does with the gun after obtaining it. My position therefore doesn't expose itself to the matter of strictly or loosely construing "shall not infringe." I've long said that the general problem I have with Republicans and Democrats, thus why I'm an Independent, is that neither (or both if you prefer) refuse to consistently apply a given set of principles. They both "cherry pick" what they want from laws and ideas. They both laud and apply a given principle "here" but discard the very same principle "there." I find that unacceptable because it's unprincipled.


Dude, she CLEARLY stored classified material on a non secure server, IE an unapproved space. Get real.

Dude, go back and look at the statute. It requires one remove information/documents. It does not have a thing to say about discussing it, which is, as far as we know, is what she did. Have you heard any of the classified content consisted of classified documents attached to her emails? I have not.
 
320 , in 2008 BRYAN NISHIMURA plead guilty to a misdemeanor for storing classified material on his private electronic device. Meaning he plead guilty to a crime, meaning he was charged with a crime. How did they charge him with a CRIME if it wasn't ILLEGAL?

And Comey himself said Clinton was NEGLIGENT in the way she handled classified material. Negligent with classified material equals a crime as per the statute.


Why is it that I need to do the research to find out the answer to your question? Why can't you ask yourself that question and go looking for the answer? You can see from my posts in this and the other thread I created on this topic that I've done a fair bit of "homework" to discern the basis for Dir. Comey and the FBI's recommendation.

Out of nothing other than pure courtesy, here's the answer:
FWIW, all I did to get that answer was put Mr. Nishimura's name into my search bar. The very first result (non news) that came up is the one that provided the answer noted above. Please tell me you cannot see the difference between what Mr. Nishimura did and what Mrs. Clinton did and that I don't have to "spell it out" for you.


She put classified information on a private server......that is how you spell it out.......it was an unclassified electronic device...one or more personal servers without any State Department security...comey stated that.....

She and her staff did exactly what Nishimura did, and it is right from your quote...

Anyone can plainly see that downloading and storing is not the same as discussing, but you apparently feel they are the same things. That's a very loose construction/interpretation of the language of Subsection 793(f).

Off Topic but relevant to your remark:
You are free to prefer loose constructionist stance on the "Email-gate" matter. Accordingly and by inference, I thus classify you as and hold you accountable to being in principle a loose constructionist. I bid you don't let me see you arguing for a strict interpretation of other legal statutes for if I do, I will rightly brand you as a generally unprincipled thinker/person. If you deny my assertion to that effect, I'll reference this post.

The thing is I don't need to wait to brand you as unprincipled. The most obvious topic for which I can identify with regard to you whereby your stated approach to legal interpretation is strict constructionist is the gun rights/control topic. I know that you are on the "gun rights" side and we all know that literally every basis for the "gun rights" (conservative) position pertaining to the gun debate derives from a strict constructionist stance re: the 2nd Amendment. The Constitution literally says, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, and those words are taken literally to mean that no laws may be passed that somehow or in any way infringe upon one's ability to obtain and own firearms of any classification.

One might wonder what my position in the gun debate. Well here it is (link provided for each bullet point):
One can see that my approach -- better tracking of guns that are produced and purchased -- to the gun debate doesn't deal with whether one can or cannot buy a gun, but rather with what one does with the gun after obtaining it. My position therefore doesn't expose itself to the matter of strictly or loosely construing "shall not infringe." I've long said that the general problem I have with Republicans and Democrats, thus why I'm an Independent, is that neither (or both if you prefer) refuse to consistently apply a given set of principles. They both "cherry pick" what they want from laws and ideas. They both laud and apply a given principle "here" but discard the very same principle "there." I find that unacceptable because it's unprincipled.


Dude, she CLEARLY stored classified material on a non secure server, IE an unapproved space. Get real.

Dude, go back and look at the statute. It requires one remove information/documents. It does not have a thing to say about discussing it, which is, as far as we know, is what she did. Have you heard any of the classified content consisted of classified documents attached to her emails? I have not.


She broke the law. PERIOD. If you don't want to admit that fine, it doesn't change the fact that what she did is ILLEGAL

You keep defending the indefensible though.
 
Correct, and she removed emails from their proper place of custody when she removed .gov email and replaced it with her own server.

That is a huge assumption on your part.
  • Where have you seen anything indicating she transferred, imported-exported or interfaced content between two repositories? I have seen nothing indicating that occurred, to say nothing of Mrs. Clinton doing it or instructing someone to do it.
  • Where have you seen anything indicating she forwarded emails from a classified system to her personal system? I have seen nothing to that effect.
To the extent that she may have forwarded documents from a .gov system to a .com system, one would have to show that the forwarded content was also classified. We have seen/heard of nothing to that effect taking place.
 
Why is it that I need to do the research to find out the answer to your question? Why can't you ask yourself that question and go looking for the answer? You can see from my posts in this and the other thread I created on this topic that I've done a fair bit of "homework" to discern the basis for Dir. Comey and the FBI's recommendation.

Out of nothing other than pure courtesy, here's the answer:
FWIW, all I did to get that answer was put Mr. Nishimura's name into my search bar. The very first result (non news) that came up is the one that provided the answer noted above. Please tell me you cannot see the difference between what Mr. Nishimura did and what Mrs. Clinton did and that I don't have to "spell it out" for you.


She put classified information on a private server......that is how you spell it out.......it was an unclassified electronic device...one or more personal servers without any State Department security...comey stated that.....

She and her staff did exactly what Nishimura did, and it is right from your quote...

Anyone can plainly see that downloading and storing is not the same as discussing, but you apparently feel they are the same things. That's a very loose construction/interpretation of the language of Subsection 793(f).

Off Topic but relevant to your remark:
You are free to prefer loose constructionist stance on the "Email-gate" matter. Accordingly and by inference, I thus classify you as and hold you accountable to being in principle a loose constructionist. I bid you don't let me see you arguing for a strict interpretation of other legal statutes for if I do, I will rightly brand you as a generally unprincipled thinker/person. If you deny my assertion to that effect, I'll reference this post.

The thing is I don't need to wait to brand you as unprincipled. The most obvious topic for which I can identify with regard to you whereby your stated approach to legal interpretation is strict constructionist is the gun rights/control topic. I know that you are on the "gun rights" side and we all know that literally every basis for the "gun rights" (conservative) position pertaining to the gun debate derives from a strict constructionist stance re: the 2nd Amendment. The Constitution literally says, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed, and those words are taken literally to mean that no laws may be passed that somehow or in any way infringe upon one's ability to obtain and own firearms of any classification.

One might wonder what my position in the gun debate. Well here it is (link provided for each bullet point):
One can see that my approach -- better tracking of guns that are produced and purchased -- to the gun debate doesn't deal with whether one can or cannot buy a gun, but rather with what one does with the gun after obtaining it. My position therefore doesn't expose itself to the matter of strictly or loosely construing "shall not infringe." I've long said that the general problem I have with Republicans and Democrats, thus why I'm an Independent, is that neither (or both if you prefer) refuse to consistently apply a given set of principles. They both "cherry pick" what they want from laws and ideas. They both laud and apply a given principle "here" but discard the very same principle "there." I find that unacceptable because it's unprincipled.


Dude, she CLEARLY stored classified material on a non secure server, IE an unapproved space. Get real.

Dude, go back and look at the statute. It requires one remove information/documents. It does not have a thing to say about discussing it, which is, as far as we know, is what she did. Have you heard any of the classified content consisted of classified documents attached to her emails? I have not.


She broke the law. PERIOD. If you don't want to admit that fine, it doesn't change the fact that what she did is ILLEGAL

You keep defending the indefensible though.

Say what you want, but clearly the people whose job and purpose is to find evidence to support charges brought cannot find the evidence to support the assertion that Mrs. Clinton has "beyond a shadow of doubt" broken a law.
 
Let's look at how the law has actually been applied.......

Military Prosecutions Show That a Gross Negligence Prosecution Would Not Unfairly Single Out Mrs. Clinton, by Andrew C. McCarthy, National Review

In McGuinness, the U.S. Court of Military Appeals rejected the defendant’s claim, and it did so in a way that is instructive for our purposes.

The judges explained that in Section 793 (part of the codification of the Espionage Act of 1917), Congress sought to establish a sliding scale of violations involving the mishandling of classified information.

The first subsection – Sec. 793(a) – requires proof of “intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation.”

Subsequent subsections – Sec. 793(d) and (e) – “require only that the accused act ‘willfully’” (i.e., in violation of a known legal duty, but not necessarily with intent to harm the U.S.).

Finally, the court turned to the subsection at issue in Mrs. Clinton’s case: “Section 793(f) has an even lower threshold, punishing loss of classified materials through ‘gross negligence’ and punishing failing to promptly report a loss of classified materials.” (Emphasis added.)

Note that the judges matter-of-factly endorse Congress’s framework:
There is no hint of a problem with the concept of employing the criminal law to punish a related series of national security offenses from the most serious, involving intent to harm the United States, down to the least serious, involving gross negligence.

Within that framework, the court rejects the claim that the less serious offenses require proof of the higher criminal intent called for in the more serious offenses.

---------

Mrs. Clinton set up her own unauthorized and non-secure communications system, well aware that the nation’s most sensitive classified information would likely be transmitted on it, in violation of laws and guidelines she was obliged to enforce as the head of one of the government’s most important departments.

By contrast, as Judge Mukasey outlined, the military cases are “reported felony prosecutions of soldiers for putting copies of classified documents in a gym bag and then not returning them out of fear of discovery; placing classified documents in a friend’s desk drawer and forgetting them; tossing documents meant to be destroyed in a dumpster rather than in the appropriate facility.”
 


  • As far as I'm aware, there's nothing indicating Mrs. Clinton would be tried in a military court of law. That is central because the prosecution's argument must show "probable cause" rather than "prove beyond a shadow of doubt."
  • Subsection 793(f) does not expressly state that mens rea is required; however, mens rea has ample precedent for having been an imputed requirement. Dir. Comey spoke directly to this in today's Congressional hearing. (The transcript of the hearing is also at the link. If you didn't watch/hear the hearing, you need to. Frankly anyone who cares about "Email-gate" should watch it.)

Illustration of the lack of integrity at least one Congressperson showed before the whole world:

Part of the "imputed mens rea" exchange was included the following (C= Congressperson; D = Director Comey)
  • C:
    "[Did] SHE [know] THAT SHE WAS RECEIVING MATERIALS, CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, IN THE E-MAILS SHE RECEIVED ON HER BLACKBERRY AND OTHER DEVICES?"
  • D:
    "I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE'S EVIDENCE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT THAT SHE KNEW SHE WAS RECEIVING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION IN VIOLATION OF THE REQUIREMENTS."
  • C:
    "BUT THAT'S NOT MY QUESTION. MY QUESTION, IN FAIRNESS, IS DID SHE KNOW THAT SHE WAS RECEIVING INFORMATION ON THE SERVERS AT HER LOCATION?"

    [So the C revises his question by removing the word "classified." Mind you, he got a direct and complete answer to the question that he did in fact ask, but he then says what he asked was not what he asked. But his lack of integrity doesn't end there....]
  • D:
    "OH, I'M SORRY. OF COURSE, YES. SHE KNEW SHE WAS USING HER E-MAIL SYSTEM."
  • C:
    "DID SHE THEN HAVE THE INTENT TO RETAIN SUCH MATERIAL AS AN UNAUTHORIZED LOCATION? SHE RESTAINED [sic] THE MATERIAL SHE RECEIVED AS SECRETARY OF STATE AT HER SERVER IN HER BASEMENT AND THAT WAS UNAUTHORIZED."
  • D:
    "[Do you mean] DID SHE HAVE THE INTENT TO RETAIN CLASSIFIED INFORMATION ON THE SERVER OR JUST TO RETAIN ANY INFORMATION ON THE SERVER?"
  • C:
    WELL, WE'VE ALREADY ESTABLISHED THAT SHE KNEW AS SECRETARY OF STATE THAT SHE WAS GOING TO RECEIVE CLASSIFIED INFORMATION IN HER E-MAILS. SO DID SHE RETAIN SUCH INFORMATION THAT SHE RECEIVED AS SECRETARY OF STATE ON HER SERVERS IN HER BASEMENT?
  • D:
    SHE DID IN FACT -- THERE IS, IN MY VIEW, NOT EVIDENCE BEYOND CERTAINLY PROBABLE CAUSE. THERE'S NOT EVIDENCE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT THAT SHE KNEW SHE WAS RECEIVING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION OR THAT SHE INTENDED TO RETAIN IT ON HER SERVER. THERE IS EVIDENCE OF THAT, BUT WHEN I SAID THERE'S NOT CLEAR EVIDENCE OF INTENT, THAT'S WHAT I MEANT. I COULD NOT, EVEN IF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WOULD BRING THAT CASE, I COULD NOT PROVE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT THOSE TWO ELEMENTS.
That's how the material portion of the exchange between the Congressman and Dir. Comey ends.

Red Italicized text above:
Now you follow the line of discussion and questioning and you show me where it was established that Mrs. Clinton knew she would receive classified information via her personal email system. The Congressman asked expressly whether she knew she would receive such emails and received a direct answer to it. It seems clear to me he didn't like the very direct and precise response he got and in turn revised his question by removing "classified" from the question, a modification that makes his a "total idiot" kind of question. (Who the hell doesn't know they are using their email system when they use it?) Stupid or not, the Congressman asked it, and it was answered, answered as anyone would answer the revised question. Then, just a few minutes later, he asserts that "we've already established that [Mrs. Clinton] knew....she was going to receive classified information in her emails."

Excuse me? Say what? What was established by his revision of the question is that Mrs. Clinton knew she was going to receive information via her email system. That she knew the nature of that information would be classified is not what the dialogue above establishes.
 
Here is an additional discussion of the idea of mens rea and its role in U.S. jurisprudence, both theory and practice.
The document above goes into depth about the conflict in U.S. jurisprudence between strict liability standards/clauses and standards that include both actus rea and mens rea. There are far too many relevant segments in the document for me to quote just a few in this venue.
 

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