Zone1 Humanity and Jesus

[frigidweirdo]

Your vision is that billions are or have been controlled by the Bible...and you are that very rare exception. Personally, I've never met anyone controlled by the Bible or any other holy book.

Yes, a lot of people have been controlled by the Bible. Some people just accept the Bible, accept it as a power base and work around it, like the Sicilian mafia, went to church, did Catholic things, but then went and ignored it for the rest of the week.

So you don't know anyone who believes in heaven and hell? You don't know anyone who says "I'm going to this because I might go to heaven, if I do the other thing, I'll go to hell"?

Well, in the past people accepted God, they accepted heaven and hell. I could find thousands of examples. I could show stories or Christian martyrs and the like. It's not hard.

Then again in the modern world, with modern churches, people use religion to try and justify their prejudices. Like those who are against gay people. "Look, the Bible says..." and you could point at a million things the Bible says that they just ignore.

 

[Meriweather]

You say God is good, the Bible says God isn't good. It's that simple.

The Bible proclaims the goodness of God time and again, something like fifty I believe. How many times must the reader be assured of this? Psalm 34 encourages, Learn to savor how good the Lord is, happy are those who take refuge in him.

I am happy. Are you happy? (A teasing point here: My name starts with Meri while yours begins with frigid )

 

[there4eyeM]

Jesus' sense of literally true may be in excess of the common, latter-day sense. People think they know "literally" what was meant, but often display that they have not gone far enough into "literal" to let their biases drop away.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, a lot of people have been controlled by the Bible. Some people just accept the Bible, accept it as a power base and work around it, like the Sicilian mafia, went to church, did Catholic things, but then went and ignored it for the rest of the week.

There is a difference between the Bible itself controlling people, and people misusing the Bible not so much to control, but to manipulate. Those who manipulate, don't stop with Bible. They use everything at their disposal to manipulate others. Therefore we are taught to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.

Individuals of faith do not use the Bible to manipulate ourselves or each other, but as guidance and lessons in discipleship. The root of discipleship is discipline, where we choose obedience over disobedience, God's ways over worldly and/or selfish ways. Used correctly, the Bible, like fire, is a great treasure. Used incorrectly, like fire it can demolish.

 

[Meriweather]

So you don't know anyone who believes in heaven and hell? You don't know anyone who says "I'm going to this because I might go to heaven, if I do the other thing, I'll go to hell"?

The Catholic faith teaches hell as a choice, a deliberate decision to separate oneself from goodness and God in favor of choosing self/selfishness and wickedness instead. The world has been redeemed, the way of salvation opened to all. So, no, in the Catholic faith it's not a matter of "do this=heaven and do that=hell". It's a matter of who and what we choose, and we choose God and goodness over evil. Catholics are not the only people who choose goodness and reject evil. As I said, redemption and salvation are open to all.

 

[Meriweather]

Then again in the modern world, with modern churches, people use religion to try and justify their prejudices. Like those who are against gay people. "Look, the Bible says..." and you could point at a million things the Bible says that they just ignore.

Take prejudice out of the equation. In all situations, what is the most perfect, what is the bullseye of perfection? What misses the target? Most don't (or shouldn't) shun an archer who misses the target, but should such an archer be lauded and labeled 'champion'? Would you laud and award an adulterer a gold medal for adultery?

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus' sense of literally true may be in excess of the common, latter-day sense. People think they know "literally" what was meant, but often display that they have not gone far enough into "literal" to let their biases drop away.

Agree

 

[frigidweirdo]

The Bible proclaims the goodness of God time and again, something like fifty I believe. How many times must the reader be assured of this? Psalm 34 encourages, Learn to savor how good the Lord is, happy are those who take refuge in him.

I am happy. Are you happy? (A teasing point here: My name starts with Meri while yours begins with frigid )

So when the Bible says "God is good", God is good. When the Bible says "God is evil", God is good.

I see how this works. Makes no sense.

 

[frigidweirdo]

There is a difference between the Bible itself controlling people, and people misusing the Bible not so much to control, but to manipulate. Those who manipulate, don't stop with Bible. They use everything at their disposal to manipulate others. Therefore we are taught to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.

Individuals of faith do not use the Bible to manipulate ourselves or each other, but as guidance and lessons in discipleship. The root of discipleship is discipline, where we choose obedience over disobedience, God's ways over worldly and/or selfish ways. Used correctly, the Bible, like fire, is a great treasure. Used incorrectly, like fire it can demolish.

The Bible is literally about manipulation. It has a moral code. Anything like that and you're trying to get people to follow it. That's manipulation.

Manipulation is essential in a society. We need people to be together to a certain extent. Religion got people far more together because it gave them common fears.

Well, I'd say when I have conversations such as these on this forum, most of the people seem to be trying to convert me, then get angry when I don't follow what they say.

"Used correctly".... well... that'd depend on how you define "correctly" I guess.

Yes, religion can be for good, and it can be for evil. Look at the US, going to war in Iraq for cheaper oil, but claiming it was doing it for other reasons, and all the religious people getting on board.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The Catholic faith teaches hell as a choice, a deliberate decision to separate oneself from goodness and God in favor of choosing self/selfishness and wickedness instead. The world has been redeemed, the way of salvation opened to all. So, no, in the Catholic faith it's not a matter of "do this=heaven and do that=hell". It's a matter of who and what we choose, and we choose God and goodness over evil. Catholics are not the only people who choose goodness and reject evil. As I said, redemption and salvation are open to all.

Sounds pretty much the same to me. One is "do this and go to heaven" the other is "choose this and go to heaven."

Redemption and salvation are open to all, everyone can go to hell or heaven based on what they do, the choices they make. Make the right choice (we are manipulating you) and you go to heaven (white fluffy clouds).

 

[frigidweirdo]

Take prejudice out of the equation. In all situations, what is the most perfect, what is the bullseye of perfection? What misses the target? Most don't (or shouldn't) shun an archer who misses the target, but should such an archer be lauded and labeled 'champion'? Would you laud and award an adulterer a gold medal for adultery?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

 

[Meriweather]

When the Bible says "God is evil", God is good.

Where exactly is this? There are over 100 verses that say God is not evil...can't seem to find any that state he is.

 

[Meriweather]

The Bible is literally about manipulation.

No.

 

[Meriweather]

Sounds pretty much the same to me. One is "do this and go to heaven" the other is "choose this and go to heaven."

Redemption and salvation are open to all, everyone can go to hell or heaven based on what they do, the choices they make. Make the right choice (we are manipulating you) and you go to heaven (white fluffy clouds).

Heaven is to know God, love God, serve God. It's also about God knowing, loving, and serving each of us. Is that kind of eternal life what we want and is it how we want to live amidst one another?

White, fluffy clouds in heaven is a very odd perspective of heaven, so I don't know how to address that.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Where exactly is this? There are over 100 verses that say God is not evil...can't seem to find any that state he is.

Where? Aside from God committing mass genocide in the Noah's Ark story?

https://wordandworld.luthersem.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/24-1_Violence/God%20and%20Violence%20in%20the%20Old%20Testament.pdf

"The Old Testament has a reputation: it is a book filled with violence, including the violence of God."

"The most basic theological problem with the Bible’s violence is that it is often associated with the activity of God; with remarkable frequency"

"From the flood, to Sodom and Gomorrah, to the command to sacrifice Isaac, to the plagues,to all the children killed on Passover night—and we are not yet through the book of Exodus!"

I don't think I need to tell you, but you seem to want to be reminded.

 

[frigidweirdo]

No.

Yes, it is. It's about morals. Morals are about manipulation.

10 commandments.

"Thou shalt not kill"

Humans are omnivores. We've killed animals for our entire history of being something akin to homo sapiens and other homos...

We've also killed each other for as long as we know. The Bible literally has stories of humans killing humans throughout the old testament... so we know we were doing it then.

Killing others is something we have tried to control. We have tried to create rules for living in a society. This is manipulation. "Don't kill people or else" is literally the threat coming from the Bible.

Though the Bible seems to split killing into different compartments, 1) Animals = fine who gives a fart? 2) War = it's okay, as long as your war (not within our own society) is just (just being, you need a flimsy excuse like "you have WMDs" when they don't) and 3) killing within our OWN society = bad.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Heaven is to know God, love God, serve God. It's also about God knowing, loving, and serving each of us. Is that kind of eternal life what we want and is it how we want to live amidst one another?

White, fluffy clouds in heaven is a very odd perspective of heaven, so I don't know how to address that.

Which is what the religious people will tell you.

I'm not religious. Where is heaven? It's not anywhere to be seen. It's the spiritual world. The world where God lives. Only God made the physical world? How, if he's of the spiritual world? Makes no sense.

Heaven, for your average Christian, is the reward for doing as you're told in this life. Apparently. It's a great system, because you can't prove it's wrong, until you're dead which is too late anyway.

How does a person "serve God"? By doing what the Human written Bible says?

How convenient for the people using religion to gain power.

And again, back to the theme of "religion is just human orientated because humans created it", it offers happiness after this life. great, I want that, it's convenient just as many other things are convenient for humans. As if God doesn't care about other animals.

 

[Meriweather]

Where?

Yes. Where. I am not asking for yours (or anyone's) interpretation of stories. I am asking for the verse that flat out states, God is evil.

Don't bother looking for there isn't one. Which leads to the question of, Why hate God? What, specifically, do you feel he has either done to you or failed you? How has he killed you?

 

[Meriweather]

It's about morals.

Actually, it is about living in love. The first three Commandments speak of loving God; the next seven are about loving one's fellow man.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes. Where. I am not asking for yours (or anyone's) interpretation of stories. I am asking for the verse that flat out states, God is evil.

Don't bother looking for there isn't one. Which leads to the question of, Why hate God? What, specifically, do you feel he has either done to you or failed you? How has he killed you?

Actions speak louder than words.

You can ask for something like that, but it does not help this conversation. It merely seems like you're trying an age old trick designed to "win" a debate by saying things that are silly.

I don't "hate God". I don't think there is a God, or gods.

You're asking the wrong question.