You have no rights

Rohrer 714

Member
Mar 21, 2010
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Think this can't happen in America?

“Innocent until proven guilty” was the bedrock principle of American justice, until recently.

The Violence Against Women Act of 2005 was signed into law in January 2006 to reauthorize the VAWA legislation originally passed in 1994.

Since VAWA first became law, more than 660 state laws regarding domestic violence have been passed, and VAWA 2005 has had an even more pervasive effect on the rights of an accused man.

All 50 states and the District of Columbia allow women to apply for Ex Parte orders of protection (Temporary Restraining Orders), which are almost always granted and most often extended or made permanent at subsequent hearings.

Innocent Americans are being penalized based on false accusations which require no proof.

Over one million men are arrested each year due to unproven allegations of domestic violence.

The standard of evidence is extremely lax. All a woman has to do is state that she is "afraid", and the Clerk of the Court will file the TRO. After a judge rubberstamps the order, the man will be served.

An order of protection:

1. Prohibits the accused from contacting his accuser directly or indirectly in any manner;
2. Forces the accused to move from a residence shared with the accuser even if the residence is the property of the accused;
3. Orders the accused to stay at least 100 yards away from the accuser, her place of residence, and place of employment;
4. Orders the accused to attend counseling; and
5. Compels the accused to immediately surrender any firearms or ammunition he owns to the police.

All of these actions take place immediately upon service of the order without the accused being given an opportunty to defend himself.

These concerns are heightened in specialized domestic violence courts. Now, procedures have been devised to save complainants who might be in imminent danger, at the expense of defendants who could have been falsely accused.

Referring to his experience in a domestic violence court, one New York attorney commented, “My client is guilty the minute he walks in the door.”

Millions of restraining orders are issued each year, often without any allegation of physical violence by the complainant, who is usually identified as the "victim" in court documents.

As a result, accused men (who are normally identified as "abusers" in the court's documents - even though they have been convisted of no crime) summarily lose access to their children, home, and financial assets with devastating consequences.

Other attorneys have noticed these tendencies to refer to complainants as "victims," and accused men as "abusers" prior to any ajudication.

As an alternative to using the criminal courts, some jurisdictions have created programs that issue restraining orders issued following bench trials in family courts.

This practice of depriving a defendant of a jury trial and the other protections typically afforded a criminal defendant short-circuits due process.

From the perspective of job security, a judge has much to lose and little to gain by ruling in favor of an accused man. If he rules against the defendant, and the defendant is really innocent, so what?

The defendant’s life might be ruined for something he did not do, but who cares? There will be no headlines, no angry feminst activists protesting on the courthouse steps.

One article in the William and Mary Law Review highlights the fact that “evidentiary standards for proving abuse have been so relaxed that any man who stands accused is considered guilty.”

Unconvicted men's lives are being irreparably damaged by unproven (and often false) allegations, and billions of taxpayer dollars are wasted.
 
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The other night where I live a bloke - who had a restraining order against him - walked up to his wife at a dinner in the convention centre and stabbed her to death. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty of murder. She's still dead though.
 
The two preceding posts underscore the assumption that any man accused of domestic violence is guilty, and seem to bear out the reality that an attempt to discuss the very real abuses of rights that these laws allow is condemned prima facie.

In modern America, the mere accusation of domestic violence serves to stigmatize and demoralize a person.

Every man is vulnerable to getting run through the wringer in this climate of bias.

It becomes the modern-day equivalent of the old joke, “So when did you stop beating your wife?”

A 1995 study conducted by the Massachusetts Trial Court reviewed the domestic
restraining orders issued in that state.

That study found that less than half of the orders involved even an allegation of violence.

Dorothy Wright, a New Jersey attorney and former board member of a women’s shelter, has estimated that 40%–50% of all restraining orders are requested solely as a legal maneuver.

The Fourth Amendment affirms, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated”.

Your rights to be secure in your home and to be free from unreasonable seizure are violated by ex parte restraining orders.
 
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:lol:

You object to the VAWA?

I think you've been taking too many Rohrer 714's. :lol:

Care to defend VAWA or point out how his criticisms of it are wrong?

I don't know much about VAWA but I can't stand this type of deflection.
 
The other night where I live a bloke - who had a restraining order against him - walked up to his wife at a dinner in the convention centre and stabbed her to death. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty of murder. She's still dead though.

So because one guy was a danger to the person giving a restraining order, all of them are?

I'm sorry I don't understand your argument.

Oh and fat lot of good the restraining order did.
 
The other night where I live a bloke - who had a restraining order against him - walked up to his wife at a dinner in the convention centre and stabbed her to death. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty of murder. She's still dead though.

An ex republicans governors son did the same thing with a gun here in Lexington KY last year.
He had a restraining order on him as well.
They are thinking of making some of the ones with restraining orders on them wear tracking bracelets on their legs. I assume that the alleged victim would get a reciever that alarms if they are nearby?
 
The other night where I live a bloke - who had a restraining order against him - walked up to his wife at a dinner in the convention centre and stabbed her to death. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty of murder. She's still dead though.

So because one guy was a danger to the person giving a restraining order, all of them are?

I'm sorry I don't understand your argument.

Oh and fat lot of good the restraining order did.

Yes, in that case it tragically didn't stop him. And there have been a few others like it. But maybe there have been a few where the restraining order saved someone from harm. So my point is that it might just be necessary and the imposition it creates might also be necessary.
 
The supposition that an unconstitutional law 'might' protect a potential victim from a crime by proactively stripping all men of their rights is repugnant to me.

Ever see the film "Minority Report"?
 
The other night where I live a bloke - who had a restraining order against him - walked up to his wife at a dinner in the convention centre and stabbed her to death. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty of murder. She's still dead though.

An ex republicans governors son did the same thing with a gun here in Lexington KY last year.
He had a restraining order on him as well.
They are thinking of making some of the ones with restraining orders on them wear tracking bracelets on their legs. I assume that the alleged victim would get a reciever that alarms if they are nearby?

So you are saying it's OK to treat men like criminals because they MIGHT commit a crime?

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
 
The supposition that an unconstitutional law 'might' protect a potential victim from a crime by proactively stripping all men of their rights is repugnant to me.

Ever see the film "Minority Report"?

How does someone get such an order in the States - is it from a vending machine?

How to File for a Restraining Order | eHow.com

Note the explanatory text that states "You can get a restraining order if you're afraid you'll be harmed but nothing has actually happened yet."
 
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The other night where I live a bloke - who had a restraining order against him - walked up to his wife at a dinner in the convention centre and stabbed her to death. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty of murder. She's still dead though.

So because one guy was a danger to the person giving a restraining order, all of them are?

I'm sorry I don't understand your argument.

Oh and fat lot of good the restraining order did.

Yes, in that case it tragically didn't stop him. And there have been a few others like it. But maybe there have been a few where the restraining order saved someone from harm. So my point is that it might just be necessary and the imposition it creates might also be necessary.

It might be neccessary to falsely accuse people and issue them restraining orders in order to try to stop people that will ignore them? Ya lost me.
 
So because one guy was a danger to the person giving a restraining order, all of them are?

I'm sorry I don't understand your argument.

Oh and fat lot of good the restraining order did.

Yes, in that case it tragically didn't stop him. And there have been a few others like it. But maybe there have been a few where the restraining order saved someone from harm. So my point is that it might just be necessary and the imposition it creates might also be necessary.

It might be neccessary to falsely accuse people and issue them restraining orders in order to try to stop people that will ignore them? Ya lost me.

You confused yourself. Where did I mention "falsely accuse people" ?
 
Yes, in that case it tragically didn't stop him. And there have been a few others like it. But maybe there have been a few where the restraining order saved someone from harm. So my point is that it might just be necessary and the imposition it creates might also be necessary.

It might be neccessary to falsely accuse people and issue them restraining orders in order to try to stop people that will ignore them? Ya lost me.

You confused yourself. Where did I mention "falsely accuse people" ?



I think you implicitly did when you said yes to the following

So because one guy was a danger to the person giving a restraining order, all of them are?

Because you can't possibly believe that every single person that is issued one is deserved of one given the nature of the system.
 
Care to defend VAWA or point out how his criticisms of it are wrong?

I don't know much about VAWA but I can't stand this type of deflection.

Fair enough. Here's the deal.. I've found that the people who post things like this have generally ended up on the wrong side of them. Historically, men who beat and abused women were given a pass. In NY there was actually something called the 'three stitch' rule which meant that the police wouldn't even arrest a guy unless his wife needed three stitches or better due to his.

The rest of the time, the police wouldn't do much more than walk the guy around the block til he 'cooled off' and then sent him back into the home with the woman he was terrorizing in the first place.

Laws like the VAWA were intended to make sure that the police did their job. When a TOP (Temporary Order of Protection) issues, yes, the accused person is often prevented from returning to him home until a hearing. In cases where someone is potentially in danger, that is what happens. There is no violation of due process because a) the accuser testifies and establishes the basis for the TOP. The accused is then given a return date and has the right to a full hearing prior to the issuance of a POP (Permanent Order of Protection). If the Judge then finds the accused is a danger, a POP can issue which would exclude the now adjudicated abuser from any contact with his victim for a year.

There is nothing in the VAWA that violates due process. And yes, like anything else, the law can be abused. I represented a man in a divorce action once whose wife accused him of injuring her finger. We knew that she was using this as a means to get him excluded from the house, but the DA wouldn't drop the charges even though the wife failed to show up for hearing THREE times. When we ended up going in front of the divorce judge, we settled the case and in exchange for letting her stay in the premises, she agreed to drop the criminal charges. At that point the D.A. finally said WTF?!?!?! And dismissed the charges.

On the other hand, there are cases where people are denied an OP and the abuser goes back and kills them. Or they have an OP and get beaten or shot to death.

Basically, the VAWA is an effort to deal with a very difficult societal problem since abuse is the one crime that crosses all socio-economic lines.

I hope that explains my position.
 
Does a court actually consider the application?

Restraining orders are granted to virtually all who apply, lest anyone be blamed for an unfortunate result.

Guilt used to be determined by juries weighing evidence in specific cases. Guilt in a DV case is a foregone conclusion, because the defendant belongs to a class (men) that is guilty by political definition.

Prosecutors, police, and advocates for the domestic violence industry have developed a technique known as 'evidence-based prosecution' which is anything but evidence-based.

'Evidence-based prosecution' is designed to convict those against whom you have no evidence.

Since the defendant – excuse me, the "batterer" or "abuser" – can be punished on trhe basis of ex parte hearsay, with no right to face his accuser, it is not really necessary to prove that a crime was committed.

Special domestic violence courts in many jurisdictions use relaxed rules of evidence and the attendant lower burden of proof to punish those accused as "batterers" or "abusers".

"Domestic violence" accounts for around 34% of all reported "violent" crime.

Given that the VAWA and it's cacophony of cloned state laws definitions of "violence" include such heinous acts as "name-calling", "criticizing, insulting, and belittling," it appears that many domestic violence incidents are not violent, as the term is traditionally understood.

I have personal knowledge of complainant's attorneys explicitly offering to have restraining orders dropped in exchange for financial concessions in a divorce action.
 
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Care to defend VAWA or point out how his criticisms of it are wrong?

I don't know much about VAWA but I can't stand this type of deflection.

Fair enough. Here's the deal.. I've found that the people who post things like this have generally ended up on the wrong side of them. Historically, men who beat and abused women were given a pass. In NY there was actually something called the 'three stitch' rule which meant that the police wouldn't even arrest a guy unless his wife needed three stitches or better due to his.

The rest of the time, the police wouldn't do much more than walk the guy around the block til he 'cooled off' and then sent him back into the home with the woman he was terrorizing in the first place.

Laws like the VAWA were intended to make sure that the police did their job. When a TOP (Temporary Order of Protection) issues, yes, the accused person is often prevented from returning to him home until a hearing. In cases where someone is potentially in danger, that is what happens. There is no violation of due process because a) the accuser testifies and establishes the basis for the TOP. The accused is then given a return date and has the right to a full hearing prior to the issuance of a POP (Permanent Order of Protection). If the Judge then finds the accused is a danger, a POP can issue which would exclude the now adjudicated abuser from any contact with his victim for a year.

There is nothing in the VAWA that violates due process. And yes, like anything else, the law can be abused. I represented a man in a divorce action once whose wife accused him of injuring her finger. We knew that she was using this as a means to get him excluded from the house, but the DA wouldn't drop the charges even though the wife failed to show up for hearing THREE times. When we ended up going in front of the divorce judge, we settled the case and in exchange for letting her stay in the premises, she agreed to drop the criminal charges. At that point the D.A. finally said WTF?!?!?! And dismissed the charges.

On the other hand, there are cases where people are denied an OP and the abuser goes back and kills them. Or they have an OP and get beaten or shot to death.

Basically, the VAWA is an effort to deal with a very difficult societal problem since abuse is the one crime that crosses all socio-economic lines.

I hope that explains my position.

You are correct in deducing I "ended up on the wrong side" of the VAWA monster.

The return hearing is a rushed affair in which an overburdened family court judge attempts to clear his or her docket in the most expeditious manner; i.e. the TRO is extended.

No evidence is needed. The fear of being perceived as "pro-abuser" is enough to help the judge decide in favor of the woman, 'just to be on the safe side'.

I was stunned to discover that punishment of an accused without regard for due process is now the law of the land.

My own TRO was vacated by Consent Decree when I agreed to pay my ex-wife, who offered to drop the complaint in exchange for financial consideration.

BTW, I have never struck - or threatened to strike, anyone.

There was no allegation of violence in my ex-wife's application.

All a woman has to do is state that she is "afraid", and you will lose your home, your family, your good name, all your posessions (except those you can pack in a suitcase in 15 minutes) and many, many thousands of dollars. All without warning, and without the right to confront your accuser in a court of law.

This tactic is widely practiced, thanks to the VAWA and the DV industry/lobby.

It's not right, and it is unconstitutional.
 
You are correct in deducing I "ended up on the wrong side" of the VAWA monster.

The return hearing is a rushed affair in which an overburdened family court judge attempts to clear his or her docket in the most expeditious manner; i.e. the TRO is extended.

No evidence is needed. The fear of being perceived as "pro-abuser" is enough to help the judge decide in favor of the woman, 'just to be on the safe side'.

I was stunned to discover that punishment of an accused without regard for due process is now the law of the land.

My own TRO was vacated by Consent Decree when I agreed to pay my ex-wife, who offered to drop the complaint in exchange for financial consideration.

BTW, I have never struck - or threatened to strike, anyone.

There was no allegation of violence in my ex-wife's application.

All a woman has to do is state that she is "afraid", and you will lose your home, your family, your good name, all your posessions (except those you can pack in a suitcase in 15 minutes) and many, many thousands of dollars. All without warning, and without the right to confront your accuser in a court of law.

This tactic is widely practiced, thanks to the VAWA and the DV industry/lobby.

It's not right, and it is unconstitutional.

Your complaint seems to be with the particular family court judge who handled your matter. The VAWA isn't unconstitutional, but that doesn't mean every judge does a good job in every case. Did your attorney agree to the extension of the TRO? Was an OSC filed demanding a hearing?

We'll have to agree to disagree as to your characterization. As I said, nothing is perfect. And sometimes the system is misused. But the good does outweigh the bad. And the ultimate goal, which is to prevent women from continuing to be victimized, is an important one.

And I have never found that just the word "afraid" was sufficient to get an OP. Nor have I found an unwillingness to throw out a TOP after hearing in the cases I handled.
 

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