Why does China get a free pass from some?

Without the travel bans, we’d be a lot worse. I get it that you need to criticize Trump at every turn but a travel ban during a global pandemic is just common sense. Only judgement clouded by anger and hate could state otherwise.

No, it was a stupid idea, because instead of having a regular flow of traffic over time, you had a bunch of people who all panicked and fled back here while they still could before the planes stopped flying.

I disagree with you, JoeB131 on the Chinese tourist travel restrictions, though I agree with you overall in your argument with Trump supporters like LeftofLeft. I have mixed American-Chinese family in Beijing now and we were personally effected. I also lived in China for eight years, and follow developments there as close as I can.

First of all the tourist travel ban was supported and publically defended by Fauci and other experts. Trump of cause loves walls and moats and thought that his ban somehow guaranteed our safety, though Fauci and many others explicitly told him it did not.

At the time of the "shutdown" the virus was already circulating in the U.S. and around the world, though it probably did buy us a little time to prepare (which was wasted). It was just a prudent measure, in my opinion, though in fact never complete as 175,000 Americans and their families living in China (and many others) were always exempt. Reduced flights from Beijing and other cities outside of Hubei continued throughout and until today. There are now ten U.S. cities where arriving flights from China are allowed to land and where usually quick health checks are given. Today, of course, the bigger danger of Covid-19 spread is from Chinese nationals living or studying in America and Europe returning to China.

So while the Trump administration can be blamed for many things, this was not one of them. The China-American relationship is complicated, and it is crucial that we don't let it fall into a so-called "Thucydites Trap" or a new Cold War. I'm sure we agree on that. I also agree with you that the tendency to blame China in general for American decline is absurd and self-defeating, and utterly typical of the narrow and arrogant U.S. mindset.
 
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Without the travel bans, we’d be a lot worse. I get it that you need to criticize Trump at every turn but a travel ban during a global pandemic is just common sense. Only judgement clouded by anger and hate could state otherwise.

No, it was a stupid idea, because instead of having a regular flow of traffic over time, you had a bunch of people who all panicked and fled back here while they still could before the planes stopped flying.

I disagree with you, JoeB131 on the Chinese tourist travel restrictions, though I agree with you overall in your argument with Trump supporters like LeftofLeft. I have mixed American-Chinese family in Beijing now and we were personally effected. I also lived in China for eight years, and follow developments there as close as I can.

First of all the tourist travel ban was suggested by and publically defended by Fauci and other experts. Trump of cause loves walls and thought that this ban made us safe, though Fauci and many others explicitly told him it did not.

At the time of the "ban" the virus was already circulating in the U.S. and around the world, though it probably did buy us a little time to prepare (which was wasted). It was just a prudent measure, in my opinion, though in fact never complete as 175,000 Americans and their families living in Chiba (and many others) were always exempt. Reduced flights from Beijing and other cities outside of Hubei continued throughout and until today. There are now ten U.S. cities where arriving flights from China are allowed to land and where usually quick health checks are given. Today, of course, the bigger danger of Covid-19 spread is from Chinese nationals living or studying in America and Europe returning to China.

So while the Trump administration can be blamed for many things, this was not one of them. The China-American relationship is complicated, and it is crucial that we don't let it fall into a so-called "Thucydites Trap" or a new Cold War. I'm sure we agree on that. I also agree with you that the tendency to blame China in general for American decline is absurd and self-defeating, and utterly typical of the narrow and arrogant U.S. mindset.
China is a complicated issue

I think liberal apologists are as prone to mix innocent chinese people with the evil communist dictatorship as some conservatives
 
Without the travel bans, we’d be a lot worse. I get it that you need to criticize Trump at every turn but a travel ban during a global pandemic is just common sense. Only judgement clouded by anger and hate could state otherwise.

No, it was a stupid idea, because instead of having a regular flow of traffic over time, you had a bunch of people who all panicked and fled back here while they still could before the planes stopped flying.

You are stating your opinion. I am restating opinion from disease experts.
 
China is a complicated issue

I think liberal apologists are as prone to mix innocent chinese people with the evil communist dictatorship as some conservatives

Or realistically, the Chinese Communists actually kind of reflect where the people there are at.

A wise PolSci professor once observed, "No government can endure without the tacit support of its people".

You are stating your opinion. I am restating opinion from disease experts.

The disease experts have roundly condemned Trump's incompetence.

 
China is a complicated issue

I think liberal apologists are as prone to mix innocent chinese people with the evil communist dictatorship as some conservatives

Well, nobody should mix innocent people with their governments. But in the real world the U.S. government (with the support of most Americans) does this all the time ... for example with our economic sanctions. Our government even goes so far as encouraging bloody religious civil wars to overthrow regimes we dislike, or outright invading and occupying countries thousands of miles away. In these respects, the U.S. really acts as an imperialist empire.

In the very different case of independent and economically competitive China the regime, though repulsively authoritarian to American eyes, is seen by Chinese as clearly and rightly protecting their own "national interests." Chinese in general know about U.S. reality better than Americans understand China. A typical educated Chinese might argue, "In the U.S. you can choose between two parties, but basic policy never changes. In China, we have only one party, but it has changed dramaticaly and learned how to develop a mixed economy that has improved all our lives." Then, among themselves, they will gripe about bureaucracy, corruption, and shake their head at Xi's censorship policies.. The problem with many Chinese, to my mind, is that they may just be too complacent, and not see how easily their own country might slide back to "the bad old days."

I don't think that China "gets a pass" in general here in the West. Not these days. I'm glad when China's shortcomings and lack of individual rights are discussed. I just want a rational discussion. I think North Americans need to look more closely in the mirror. So should Chinese in China.
 
It’s their virus. It’s their fault. If they reported this three weeks earlier then none of this happens. Now global economies are ruined, 401Ks devastated, jobs lost, death, isolation, devastation and we have posters here blaming Trump, posting results of odd polls and stating it’s racist to call it a “Chinese Virus”?

This is China’s fault. 100%. Sanctions are a must once we recover.

Buy American!

It is not China's fault.

They could have informed us earlier and your fat assed piece of shit orange buddy would have still done nothing.
It is. Forget us. What about Europe? Italy, France, Germany, UK...you blame that on Trump too? China started this and it seems as though most plagues come from there.
 
China is a complicated issue

I think liberal apologists are as prone to mix innocent chinese people with the evil communist dictatorship as some conservatives

Or realistically, the Chinese Communists actually kind of reflect where the people there are at.

A wise PolSci professor once observed, "No government can endure without the tacit support of its people".

You are stating your opinion. I am restating opinion from disease experts.

The disease experts have roundly condemned Trump's incompetence.

You cant completely divorce the population from the government

because the CCP are not aliens from Mars

Most chinese buy into the communist assertion that the world owes china because of past treatment by the west and japan

its not as if the chinese love America but we are just too prejudiced to love them back

they mean us real harm
 
China is a complicated issue

I think liberal apologists are as prone to mix innocent chinese people with the evil communist dictatorship as some conservatives

Well, nobody should mix innocent people with their governments. But in the real world the U.S. government (with the support of most Americans) does this all the time ... for example with our economic sanctions. Our government even goes so far as encouraging bloody religious civil wars to overthrow regimes we dislike, or outright invading and occupying countries thousands of miles away. In these respects, the U.S. really acts as an imperialist empire.

In the very different case of independent and economically competitive China the regime, though repulsively authoritarian to American eyes, is seen by Chinese as clearly and rightly protecting their own "national interests." Chinese in general know about U.S. reality better than Americans understand China. A typical educated Chinese might argue, "In the U.S. you can choose between two parties, but basic policy never changes. In China, we have only one party, but it has changed dramaticaly and learned how to develop a mixed economy that has improved all our lives." Then, among themselves, they will gripe about bureaucracy, corruption, and shake their head at Xi's censorship policies.. The problem with many Chinese, to my mind, is that they may just be too complacent, and not see how easily their own country might slide back to "the bad old days."

I don't think that China "gets a pass" in general here in the West. Not these days. I'm glad when China's shortcomings and lack of individual rights are discussed. I just want a rational discussion. I think North Americans need to look more closely in the mirror. So should Chinese in China.
In the very different case of independent and economically competitive China the regime, though repulsively authoritarian to American eyes

i would call it repulsively authoritarian in any reasonable persons eyes

But I dont disagree with your entire statement

particularly the part about why chinese people are so complacent about the government
 
Mac-7 — Who “means us real harm”? The 1.4 billion Chinese people? The 90 million members of the Chinese Communist Party? Only Trump’s “friend” XiJinping?

Wake up and smell the coffee! “China” wants to continue to grow more wealthy, to leave two centuries of poverty and misery behind it. Chinese people want what we do. Good lives for their children. Sometimes we have different interests. We certainly have different cultures and systems...

Perhaps it is really you that wants to harm them ?
 
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P.S. I didn’t mean to get personal. Sorry if I sounded that way. I actually liked and respected the view expressed in your last comment #248.
 
China is a complicated issue

I think liberal apologists are as prone to mix innocent chinese people with the evil communist dictatorship as some conservatives

Or realistically, the Chinese Communists actually kind of reflect where the people there are at.

A wise PolSci professor once observed, "No government can endure without the tacit support of its people".

You are stating your opinion. I am restating opinion from disease experts.

The disease experts have roundly condemned Trump's incompetence.


They all disagree with your assertion that the travel ban was bad. You people have such a hard on for GETTRUMP you’ve lost all objectivity.
 
Mac-7 — Who “means us real harm”? The 1.4 billion Chinese people? The 90 million members of the Chinese Communist Party? Only Trump’s “friend” XiJinping?

Wake up and smell the coffee! “China” wants to continue to grow more wealthy, to leave two centuries of poverty and misery behind it. Chinese people want what we do. Good lives for their children. Sometimes we have different interests. We certainly have different cultures and systems...

Perhaps it is really you that wants to harm them ?
Who “means us real harm”? The 1.4 billion Chinese people? The 90 million members of the Chinese Communist Party? Only Trump’s “friend” XiJinping?

to varying degrees and in different ways all of the above

the average chinese is very nationalistic and also ambitious

they do mean to better themselves at our expense

but they are not the ones building artificial islands in the china sea, or organ harvesting political and religious prisoners, or kidnapping foreign women to restock the shelves of wives lost during chinas one child policy

and I know trump and Xi are not friends

but they are trying not to become mortal enemies either
 
Without the travel bans, we’d be a lot worse. I get it that you need to criticize Trump at every turn but a travel ban during a global pandemic is just common sense. Only judgement clouded by anger and hate could state otherwise.

No, it was a stupid idea, because instead of having a regular flow of traffic over time, you had a bunch of people who all panicked and fled back here while they still could before the planes stopped flying.

I disagree with you, JoeB131 on the Chinese tourist travel restrictions, though I agree with you overall in your argument with Trump supporters like LeftofLeft. I have mixed American-Chinese family in Beijing now and we were personally effected. I also lived in China for eight years, and follow developments there as close as I can.

First of all the tourist travel ban was suggested by and publically defended by Fauci and other experts. Trump of cause loves walls and thought that this ban made us safe, though Fauci and many others explicitly told him it did not.

At the time of the "ban" the virus was already circulating in the U.S. and around the world, though it probably did buy us a little time to prepare (which was wasted). It was just a prudent measure, in my opinion, though in fact never complete as 175,000 Americans and their families living in Chiba (and many others) were always exempt. Reduced flights from Beijing and other cities outside of Hubei continued throughout and until today. There are now ten U.S. cities where arriving flights from China are allowed to land and where usually quick health checks are given. Today, of course, the bigger danger of Covid-19 spread is from Chinese nationals living or studying in America and Europe returning to China.

So while the Trump administration can be blamed for many things, this was not one of them. The China-American relationship is complicated, and it is crucial that we don't let it fall into a so-called "Thucydites Trap" or a new Cold War. I'm sure we agree on that. I also agree with you that the tendency to blame China in general for American decline is absurd and self-defeating, and utterly typical of the narrow and arrogant U.S. mindset.
China is a complicated issue

I think liberal apologists are as prone to mix innocent chinese people with the evil communist dictatorship as some conservatives
When you are done complaining, could you give us a description of what China NOT getting a "free pass" would look like? Thanks.
 
It’s their virus. It’s their fault. If they reported this three weeks earlier then none of this happens. Now global economies are ruined, 401Ks devastated, jobs lost, death, isolation, devastation and we have posters here blaming Trump, posting results of odd polls and stating it’s racist to call it a “Chinese Virus”?

This is China’s fault. 100%. Sanctions are a must once we recover.

Buy American!

It is not China's fault.

They could have informed us earlier and your fat assed piece of shit orange buddy would have still done nothing.
It is. Forget us. What about Europe? Italy, France, Germany, UK...you blame that on Trump too? China started this and it seems as though most plagues come from there.
Like H1N1?

Italy did stupids shit like Trump. South Korea did way better than Trump.
 
It’s their virus. It’s their fault. If they reported this three weeks earlier then none of this happens. Now global economies are ruined, 401Ks devastated, jobs lost, death, isolation, devastation and we have posters here blaming Trump, posting results of odd polls and stating it’s racist to call it a “Chinese Virus”?

This is China’s fault. 100%. Sanctions are a must once we recover.

Buy American!

It is not China's fault.

They could have informed us earlier and your fat assed piece of shit orange buddy would have still done nothing.
It is. Forget us. What about Europe? Italy, France, Germany, UK...you blame that on Trump too? China started this and it seems as though most plagues come from there.
Like H1N1?

Italy did stupids shit like Trump. South Korea did way better than Trump.
South Koreans gave up freedoms that Americans would never give up. You do know that? Right?
 
We should be slapping tariffs on the vermin to help pay for the disaster they caused with their bio-lab incompetence. We do business with them because Wall Street loves dirt cheap labor controlled by police states and totalitarian regimes. They hate America, too many uppity proles still left for their tastes. The Red Chinese imprison dissenters and religious people, then harvests their organs to sell to rich westerners who can afford transplants, and they also experiment on them with chemical and drugs, and yes, viruses and germs. This isn't 'conspiracy theory' it's proven fact, and it is also a fact many of these bio-labs of theirs are located in or near prisons. This one got out, maybe deliberately, maybe not, those are distinctions without a difference in real life. We need to not only stop subsidizing their trade we need to stop doing any business with the scum, period.

They also imprison doctors who warn of pandemic viruses.
 
When Xi denied the problem for 6 weeks, that allowed literally millions of COVID-19 contacts to spread throughout the world, which was EXACTLY his intent. That motherfucker is evil to the core.
And now he can buy equity in our public companies super cheap. Coincidence?
Speaking of weird conspiracy theories....
So you don’t think they can? Why not? They have the capital and stocks are dirt cheap. Explain why they wouldn’t .
They have been economically hit by this virus as well. Got any other weird conspiracy theories?
They could lose 100mil people and not lose a beat.
Not really. The one thing the Chinese leadership fears is having the people turn against them. It is a lot of people.

The one thing they don’t fear is people turning against them.
AA56ED4A-A8FD-4DFA-B03C-13A17FF77FA3.jpeg
 
Without the travel bans, we’d be a lot worse. I get it that you need to criticize Trump at every turn but a travel ban during a global pandemic is just common sense. Only judgement clouded by anger and hate could state otherwise.

No, it was a stupid idea, because instead of having a regular flow of traffic over time, you had a bunch of people who all panicked and fled back here while they still could before the planes stopped flying.

I disagree with you, JoeB131 on the Chinese tourist travel restrictions, though I agree with you overall in your argument with Trump supporters like LeftofLeft. I have mixed American-Chinese family in Beijing now and we were personally effected. I also lived in China for eight years, and follow developments there as close as I can.

First of all the tourist travel ban was suggested by and publically defended by Fauci and other experts. Trump of cause loves walls and thought that this ban made us safe, though Fauci and many others explicitly told him it did not.

At the time of the "ban" the virus was already circulating in the U.S. and around the world, though it probably did buy us a little time to prepare (which was wasted). It was just a prudent measure, in my opinion, though in fact never complete as 175,000 Americans and their families living in Chiba (and many others) were always exempt. Reduced flights from Beijing and other cities outside of Hubei continued throughout and until today. There are now ten U.S. cities where arriving flights from China are allowed to land and where usually quick health checks are given. Today, of course, the bigger danger of Covid-19 spread is from Chinese nationals living or studying in America and Europe returning to China.

So while the Trump administration can be blamed for many things, this was not one of them. The China-American relationship is complicated, and it is crucial that we don't let it fall into a so-called "Thucydites Trap" or a new Cold War. I'm sure we agree on that. I also agree with you that the tendency to blame China in general for American decline is absurd and self-defeating, and utterly typical of the narrow and arrogant U.S. mindset.
China is a complicated issue

I think liberal apologists are as prone to mix innocent chinese people with the evil communist dictatorship as some conservatives
When you are done complaining, could you give us a description of what China NOT getting a "free pass" would look like? Thanks.
I dont know

I have not seen china held accountable for anything since nixon went to peking
 
There is so little real understanding of China here.

DOTR/"Americans Without Islam" is a fool. Apparently -- as his slogan would seem to imply -- a religious bigot too.

"AzogtheDefiler" seems an appropriately juvenile name, and his statement, "South Koreans gave up freedoms that Americans would never give up" is fundamentally wrong. South Koreans handled their Covid-19 outbreak in a model fashion.

----

P.S.: I would add that throwing around exaggerated charges that doctors were "jailed," or even "killed," is wrong ... though unwarranted pressure and censorship was certainly applied. Suffice it to say these early errors were serious unintended yet almost inevitable consequences of XiJinping's new censorship and Internet crackdown policies. They were later discussed in important Chinese newspapers like Caixin and repudiated. Hopefully some lessons will be learned, at least in the public health field.

Covid-19 at the time was a brand new mysterious disease and the central government did not have a good idea of what it was dealing with, while some of the more outspoken doctors involved were not experts in this field but opthamalagists, etc.

The viral studies, following bureaucratic protocols, had just been taken up by central authorities when the news broke, and Xi took too much time making the hard political decisions -- though not nearly as much as in the U.S. under Trump, where willful denial and concern with political image was even more extreme. The notification to the WHO and decoding and publicizing the genetic code of this new Coronavirus actually occurred very rapidly, which is why South Korea was able to develop its testing so quickly and use it so successfully.
 

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