Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[P F Tinmore]

the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,

What does integrity mean?

Independent from what?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The exercise of these rights has no other limitation than the exercise of the rights of other states according to international law.

Indeed.

 

[P F Tinmore]

• IF the International System disavows the Annexation, THEN the claim can be made that Israel invaded Arab Palestinian Territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Disputed Territory in Palestine (DTP) and its Arab Palestinian inhabitance did not have the Right to Self-Determination

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.

The US recognized Palestinian citizenship and passports. The US entered into a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Disputed Territory in Palestine (DTP) and its Arab Palestinian inhabitance did not have the Right to Self-Determination and therefore could not participate in the adoption of Annexation of April 1950.

I heard someplace that Jordan hand picked some Palestinian"leaders" to sign off on their annexation plan. This implies that the Palestinians had the sovereignty to make such a decision.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.

The US recognized Palestinian citizenship and passports. The US entered into a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932.

That is awesome!
Who were the government officials of Palestine in 1932?
Who signed these agreements on the Palestinian side?
What was the currecy and the exchange rate with the US dollar?
Where was the currency minted/printed?

 

[P F Tinmore]

ARTICLE 8
No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.

Palestine is the poster child of external interference.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.

The US recognized Palestinian citizenship and passports. The US entered into a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932.

That is awesome!
Who were the government officials of Palestine in 1932?
Who signed these agreements on the Palestinian side?
What was the currecy and the exchange rate with the US dollar?
Where was the currency minted/printed?

I don't know but the US had a separate trade agreement with Britain.

 

[Hollie]

ARTICLE 8
No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.

Palestine is the poster child of external interference.

Pally's are poster children for failure and incompetence.

Indeed, Hong Kong, Vietnam, South Korea and others have managed to overcome much worse and were able to thrive and succeed where the Pally's only managed to fail.

Indeed, you want to wallow in your failures and blame others for what you can't accomplish.

 

[Hollie]

Disputed Territory in Palestine (DTP) and its Arab Palestinian inhabitance did not have the Right to Self-Determination and therefore could not participate in the adoption of Annexation of April 1950.

I heard someplace that Jordan hand picked some Palestinian"leaders" to sign off on their annexation plan. This implies that the Palestinians had the sovereignty to make such a decision.

I heard someplace that is just another excuse for Pally failure and incompetence.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.

The US recognized Palestinian citizenship and passports. The US entered into a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932.

That is awesome!
Who were the government officials of Palestine in 1932?
Who signed these agreements on the Palestinian side?
What was the currecy and the exchange rate with the US dollar?
Where was the currency minted/printed?

I don't know but the US had a separate trade agreement with Britain.

So you were wrong when you claimed we had a trade agreement with Palestine?
Nothing was signed by Palestinian officials?

 

[ClaireH]

I'm pretty amazed the true original land dwellers, the Phillistines, don't rise up to reclaim their lands! Are they Syrians now, or Jordanian, or ?

I used to joke about this (in a non-offensive manner) about people starting a movement claiming to be first Canaanites (from Crete) who sought ownership of lands owned by their ancestors in 12th C. B.C.E. I can do silly well and enjoy the heck out of it.

What tribes were there prior to 12th C.B.C recorded by historical records? Will more information be forthcoming about previous peoples with archaeological discoveries in ME?

"The Philistines inhabited the Mediterranean coast of Canaan during the period of the Book of Judges. They founded five principalities - Gaza, Asheklon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath."Philistine" comes from the Hebrew word Philistia, and the Greek rendering of the name, palaistinei, gives us the modern name "Palestine."

I admit to not reading over the 1000 plus pages on this thread prior to asking my question, so if this has already been discussed my apologies

Wrong.
The Canaanites were not at all from Crete.
The Canaanites were Semitic, meaning Arab, and were in Jericho over 7000 years ago, so predate the Minoans on Crete, by at least several thousand years.
And the Philistines were not the original Palestinians or the only Palestinians.
Besides Canaanites, there were/are Chaldeans, Nabatians, Phoenicians, Urites, Amorites, etc.
The Philistines only inhabited about half of Gaza, and not much else.
But since they were prolific sailors, along with the Phoenicians, they were the source of the name Palestine, for the coast line.

Thanks for additional details, and your response prompting a search to find the latest archaelogicial findings.

"The Aegean Sea surrounds Greece, as well as Crete, and has been home to thriving generations for millennia. Some scientists and historians believe that the Philistines and other sea peoples originated in this region before traveling to other lands. Many religious objects from the Philistine city of Ashdod resemble those found in Mycenaean Greece. They may have brought an early version of the Greek pantheon with them, and it assimilated into other pantheons in the region. While this hypothesis is certainly plausible, we just don’t know much the Philistine religion. More archaeological evidence is needed to piece together the story of the Philistines were and where they came from.

DNA Reveals the Origins of the Ancient Philistines

32. According to the Bible, the Philistines were polytheists. Polytheism refers to the worship of...

sciencesensei.com

"A genetic study was carried out on human remains found in the Philistine city of Ashkelon, located on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea north of the Gaza Strip using ancient DNA extracted from their bones. Scientists have discovered that this mysterious ancient group of people actually originated in southern Europe around 3,500 years ago in the early Iron Age. The exact origin is difficult to pin down, it could be from anywhere in northern Italy, Sardinia, Greece, or Cyprus."

We are witnessing amazing times of discovery and without question more will be coming soon for public knowledge. Who knows, maybe the scientists will find greater consensus, and then there will be those who will hold onto their previous convictions due to either a political, religious, or perhaps dual reasoning. Ethicial scientists do their best to discard all preconceived theories when proven to be wrong; let's hope these are the scientists who carry the largest megaphones.

DNA Analysis Reveals Mysterious Origin of Biblical Philistines - Infinity Explorers

A handful of skeletons discovered in the Middle East have shed light on the backstory of the Philistines, described in the Bible as one of the Israelites main rivals.

infinityexplorers.com

I found other sources that support the above conclusion that more information will be forthcoming with digging deeper into the historical roots..quite literally. If you don't accept the above sources as valid, I can provide others if requested to do so. Thanks for leading me to new information!

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Status West Bank
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al

BLUF: This was listed very distinctly as an argumentative point.

Disputed Territory in Palestine (DTP) and its Arab Palestinian inhabitance did not have the Right to Self-Determination

Link?

(COMMENT)

The argument goes like this. (Unification of the Two Banks)

"On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. Thirteen days later, Parliament unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, constitutionally expanding the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in order to safeguard what was left of the Arab territory of Palestine from further Zionist expansion."​

The West Bank Arab Palestinians were equally represented in the Jordanian Parliament (ie 50:50). IF the vote was unanimous → THEN 100% of the West Bank Arab Palestinians voted for annexation.

By saying (for whatever reason) that IF the UN and the International Community disavowed (claiming that the determination made by the West Bank Arab Palestinian Representatives was ILLEGAL or otherwise INVALID) THEN in essence, the West Bank Arab Palestinian were denied their Right of Self-Determination.​

​

IF, on the other hand, the UN and the International Community stated that it was a defective vote, but took no action (over several decades) to correct the defective nature of the Annexation action, THEN that amounts to tacit approval.​

(NOTICE)

At the risk of doing the research for my opponent (P F Tinmore) there is a somewhat complicated, and in the end - rather unuseful - document:

THE LEGAL STATUS OFhttps://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/9614F8FC82DCA5DF852575D80069E0C0
THE WEST BANK AND GAZA
Prepared for, and under the guidance of
the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable
Rights of the Palestinian People (CEIRPP)​

What makes this so "unuseful is that" it mentions all of the arguments I've discussed over time. Yet does not actually give an answer to the question: What is the Legal Status of the West Bank and Gaza Strip?

This means that the real answer is NOT as cut'n'dry as our anti-Israeli counterparts make it out to be. As our friend P F Timore is always asking for, they did not make a Map. All this implies that the CEIRPP do not know and did not know the answer and at the time. The CEIRPP 2020 Annual Report is no more insightful than any of their previous publication.

The complexion and the tone of the Report, a regurgitation of the Arab Palestinian complaints over the last decade (while they were engaged in wholesale violations of Customary and International Humanitarian Law), is exactly what you might expect from the representative complexion of the membership:

The Committee is composed of 25 Member States, representing different regional groups and supporting the international consensus for a two-State solution:​

Cuba, Cyprus, Ecuador, Guinea, Guyana, India, Indonesia, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Madagascar, Malaysia, Mali, Malta, Namibia, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Pakistan, Senegal, Sierra Leone, South Africa, Tunisia, Turkey and Venezuela​

The 24 observers of the Committee are:​

Algeria, Bangladesh, Bulgaria, China, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, the Niger, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka, the Syrian Arab Republic, the United Arab Emirates, Viet Nam and Yemen, as well as the State of Palestine, the African Union, LAS and OIC.​

​

I suspect that at some point, the Israeli Government will get tired of being bombarded by the UN and the various anti-Israeli rhetoric and withdraw from the UN entirely maybe including the Geneva Convention in the process.

​

Just My Thoughts,

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Trade Exhanges
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: We've gone over this before.

What does integrity mean?

Independent from what?

(COMMENT)

Under International Law, - territorial integrity - While Article. 2(4) of the U.N. Charter proscribed the threat or use of force against, inter alia , ‘the territorial integrity . . . of any State’, no definition is provided as to what constitutes territorial integrity.

Together with political independence, territorial integrity encompasses the totality of what is generally seen as the internal sovereignty of a State. See Crawford , The Creation of States in International Law (2nd ed.), passim .

(Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law pg 597)

It is a concept that is used for political consumption.

The US recognized Palestinian citizenship and passports. The US entered into a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932.

(COMMENT)

You make this mistake so many time it is becoming a travesty. The 1932 US Trade negotiations was with the Government of Palestine (AKA: the British Government).

The Passports were the same way. Issued by the British Government.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

I suspect that at some point, the Israeli Government will get tired of being bombarded by the UN and the various anti-Israeli rhetoric and withdraw from the UN entirely maybe including the Geneva Convention in the process.

Good idea. Israel lied to gain membership and has ducked its obligations since.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Trade Exhanges
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: We've gone over this before.

What does integrity mean?

Independent from what?

(COMMENT)

Under International Law, - territorial integrity - While Article. 2(4) of the U.N. Charter proscribed the threat or use of force against, inter alia , ‘the territorial integrity . . . of any State’, no definition is provided as to what constitutes territorial integrity.

Together with political independence, territorial integrity encompasses the totality of what is generally seen as the internal sovereignty of a State. See Crawford , The Creation of States in International Law (2nd ed.), passim .

(Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law pg 597)

It is a concept that is used for political consumption.

The US recognized Palestinian citizenship and passports. The US entered into a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932.

(COMMENT)

You make this mistake so many time it is becoming a travesty. The 1932 US Trade negotiations was with the Government of Palestine (AKA: the British Government).

The Passports were the same way. Issued by the British Government.

Most Respectfully,
R

We've gone over this before.

Do you mean like the territorial integrity of a country that has no defined territory?

 

[P F Tinmore]

THE LEGAL STATUS OFThe Legal Status of the West Bank and Gaza - Study (1 January 1982)
THE WEST BANK AND GAZA

I see nothing in here that obliges the Palestinians to partition Palestine or to create two states.

 

[P F Tinmore]

THE LEGAL STATUS OFThe Legal Status of the West Bank and Gaza - Study (1 January 1982)
THE WEST BANK AND GAZA

Thanks for the link.

The fourth argument, asserting that sovereignty may have rested with the native inhabitants of the territories, is based on the fact that the primary objective of the mandate system was to prepare the territories for self-government and on the Council's recognition of this area as an "A" mandate (prepared for provisional recognition). The legal effect under international law of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations was to make of this territory a State in which was vested legal sovereignty over Palestine.

Professor Henry Cattan maintains:

• "All the various views which have been expressed on the point - except that which considers sovereignty to reside in the inhabitants of the mandated territory - have now been abandoned or discredited. None of the views that sought to rest sovereignty elsewhere than in the inhabitants of the mandated territory appears to rest on an acceptable legal or logical basis." 5/

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Demarcations and Borders
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: When you ask me about terminology, I generally cite the Legal Dictionary terminology.

Do you mean like the territorial integrity of a country that has no defined territory?

(COMMENT)

"Territorial Integrity" and "Defined Territory" are only related in that they have something to do with "territory."

​

"Territorial Integrity" is an undefined concept. The terminology of "Defined Territory" (as used in the Montevideo Convention) refers to lines mapped out or described by a closed perimeter onto the surface of the Earth which separates one sovereignty from another sovereignty.

You keep bringing up this notion (or implication) that Israel does not have recognized, by the adjacent nations, a parameter that defines its sovereignty. Well it does and you have been given the reference before. It is just not an answer you want to hear.

Posting #18112, Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
Posting #647. Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.

◈ Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel •​

◈ Golan Heights Law •​

◈ Egypt and Israel Treaty of Peace (1979) •​

◈ Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (Oslo I) (1993)​

◈ Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994) •​

◈ Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and Gaza Strip (Oslo II) (1995) •​

◈ Letter from the Permanent Representative of Lebanon (2000) •​

The Allied Powers set the boundaries. " Syria was set by the "frontier described in Article 8 of the Franco-Turkish Agreement of the 20th October 1921." From that point, the Mandate boundaries that partitioned Syria were determined between France and Great Britain (Treaty # 564). Treaty #564 is the Franco-British Convention of 23 December 1920. It is this Convention that documents the settlement of problems raised by the attribution connected with the French Mandates for Syria and Lebanon, as they relate to the Mandates for Palestine and Mesopotamia."

Most Respectfully,
R