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Sometimes it's just the shred of hope that maybe logical reasoning and rational thought is a possibility, in which people want. A realm where logical reasoning and rational thought can survive, is much better than a realm where concrete preordained ideals can be justified as legitimate.Logical reasoning and rational thought.
Please go out and experience life. You will find out in short order that not 5% of the human experience can be explained by logical reasoning or rational thought. Greater minds than any on this board have ended up in asylums trying to fit their existence into a logical, reasonable framework.
It's not perfect. But it's a step in the right direction.
I was mostly refering to our local wingnuts. I know many evangelical conservatives, and have some in my family, that are quite conservative, that have changed their stances on political subjects after having investigated the facts. In fact, some of them are evangelical ministers, and are far less rigid in their political stances than most paint them.
Unfortunately, they are not the ones that are making the noise. In fact, an awful lot of evangelicals claim to speak for all, when they are really in the minority in their faith on an issue. Especially true of the TV Evangelists.
I notice you did not comment on yourself. Ever change your mind on something or does the saying, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks", apply to Old Rocks to?
Also, the REASON I am no longer a member of the Religious Right is because of those absolutely embarrassing TV Evangelists especially the ones like Joel Olsteen, Pat Robertson and the Late Jerry Falwell. Somewhere along the line, they seem to have lost the message of the Word of God.
Immie
Wait, what? How did televangelists make you stop being a member of the "Religious Right"? How are they embarrassing to you?
I think you're generalizing to let yourself off the hook. I've seen all of the televangelists you mention, and I don't know how you figure most of them have "lost the Gospel" or focus too much on politics. If anything, perhaps they're guilty of trying to relate the Gospel to things that are relevant in people's lives, i.e. politics. I've never heard Joel Osteen curse, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there, and I'm not sure what you mean by "beating sinners to despair" with the law. Lastly, I'm not sure how these televangelists are responsible for you forsaking your political beliefs. Nobody appointed Robertson or Dobson as head honcho in charge of the Religious Right.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
Oh and what if logic and reason arrive at those self same concrete preordained ideals?
I'm interested in hearing from some of the rational conservatives here. It's no secret that I hang to the left, but I also believe that competition is good. And as long as the Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, anti-intellectual, irrationalist, and/or theocractic fringe are the movers and shakers of the Republican party, I can't see them as a viable alternative to the Democratic party.
So my question is to the more rational conservatives who I recognize are present here and in the general public. The conservatives who are not anti-evolution, obsessed with abortion, spouting over-the-top conspiracy theories, and who can debate on the merits of an idea rather than make-up patently false assertions are my target.
What comes next for you and the Republican party? Do you have any ideas how to regain control? Do you think the GOP should be conceded and another party become home for rational conservatives? What if the Democratic party officially split into Conservative Democrats and Liberal Democrats? (which seems possible these days). Would any of you consider joining a separate Conservative Democrat Party? Should you try to make the Libertarian party a viable national party?
I'm asking with sincerity. I consider it to my advantage if rational people control the opposition. After all, I don't like to think that if the party I generally support loses, then the country could have a Sarah Palin as president. I may frequently support the Democrat party, but I don't appreciate feeling like I have to support them because the alternative is so out of touch.
I may frequently support the Democrat party, but I don't appreciate feeling like I have to support them because the alternative is so out of touch.
I think you're generalizing to let yourself off the hook. I've seen all of the televangelists you mention, and I don't know how you figure most of them have "lost the Gospel" or focus too much on politics. If anything, perhaps they're guilty of trying to relate the Gospel to things that are relevant in people's lives, i.e. politics. I've never heard Joel Osteen curse, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there, and I'm not sure what you mean by "beating sinners to despair" with the law. Lastly, I'm not sure how these televangelists are responsible for you forsaking your political beliefs. Nobody appointed Robertson or Dobson as head honcho in charge of the Religious Right.
I understand what you are saying there, but let me clarify somethings:
1) I didn't say Joel Olsteen cursed. I said that he mentions Jesus Christ as often as Jesse Jackson who only mentions Jesus Christ as often as he curses. I've heard Jesse Jackson mention Jesus Christ twice and bot times were a curse.
2) Joel Olsteen does not preach the Gospel. Joel Olsteen is a salesman who preaches prosperity theology meaning "send money to me and you will be fulfilled".
3) I used to like both Pat Robertson and Dr. Dobson especially Dr. Dobson, but both have sold out to the world of politics. They don't speak God's Word anymore they speak praises of the Republican Party. Pat Robertson is especailly guilty of condemning people, such as homosexuals, and leaving them without any hope of salvation.
4) Are they really the Head Honchos of people of Faith? No, but they are the voices of the religious right and until people of faith speak out against their errors, they will be the only voice of people of faith.
5) about beating sinners to despair, let me just say this, that Pat Robertson is famous for condemning the homosexual or the pro-choice movement yet leaving them without any hope of turning to God for their salvation. He condemns yet leaves them feeling that people of faith despise them because they happen to be sinners. Guess what, I too am a sinner! I am not a homosexual, but I have committed sins against God that are just as wrong as the sins committed by homosexuals and if the homosexual is without hope of salvation then so, too, am I.
In my opinion, they all preach the law yet forget the true message of the word of God:
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
Without God's Grace, I am without hope.
I am embarrassed that TV evangelists have gotten the Law part, yet cannot offer the Gospel part to those that are in need of it the most.
Immie
Fuck you, eat shit, and die.
Thanks for playing.
Great response! You're only proving the point of the OP.
The "point" of the OP was to look for Republicans who will think like Olympia Snowe. Those people don't win national elections. When I pointed out how the GOP won national elections the response was immediately to denigrate those achievements and pretend they didnt exist. There is no arguing with someone like that.
And your sig line comes from Rep Steve Cohen of Memphis. You might want to credit him. If someone said it earlier than him I dont know.
1. Oh, OK. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
2. Uh, OK? What does that have to do with you and the Religious Right?
3. So you're saying all Pat Robertson does is sit around and compliment the Republican Party? I think you know that's not true even most of the time. I have no doubt that he's in the tank for them politically, but he doesn't have to sit there and read Scripture the entire time, either. To understand the Gospel, you have to draw on examples in life. Politics is just one of those examples, and don't say that's the only one he ever uses, because we both know that's not true.
4. No offense, but I'm sick to death of this "so-and-so needs to speak out against so-and-so". Please. How about you have enough intellectual curiosity to seek out varying opinions instead of expecting life to just throw them at you? Liberals (and I'm not assuming you are or you aren't, just giving an example) do this all the time with conservatives: they only pay attention to the handful of people they trust will make outlandish statements, and then base their opinions about the entirety of conservatism based on those small handful of people. Then, when someone mentions that there's more to us than that, they start with that "well then you guys need to speak out and stop letting them speak for you" crap, as if it's our responsibility to monitor what other adults who have mouths and brains in their heads said. Get real. You can only take care of yourself. You might identify with people for some reasons or whatever, but elected officials and people who have a soapbox aren't the same thing. Pundits and televangelists don't "represent" me. They don't represent you.
5. Again, I get the feeling you're generalizing. I don't think it's smart to assume that someone as old as Pat Robertson, who's been around as long as he has, only condemns sinners and never gives them any hope for salvation. We're not talking about Fred Phelps. On the other hand, as many times as the media (and in particular, the gays) have taken his words out of context and lobbed insults at him over being publicly religious, well, maybe he has a certain ire against the institutionalizing of something he finds sinful, more than him seeing no reason to remind them that salvation exists for everyone guilty of any sin. But I've seen it time and time again how people will base the merciful aspects of the Gospel on its political manifestation. Because people like Dobson and Robertson are against stuff like abortion and gay marriage, people figure they're judgmental homophobes. They don't get the whole story, because they don't care about the whole story.
Sometimes it's just the shred of hope that maybe logical reasoning and rational thought is a possibility, in which people want. A realm where logical reasoning and rational thought can survive, is much better than a realm where concrete preordained ideals can be justified as legitimate.Logical reasoning and rational thought.
Please go out and experience life. You will find out in short order that not 5% of the human experience can be explained by logical reasoning or rational thought. Greater minds than any on this board have ended up in asylums trying to fit their existence into a logical, reasonable framework.
It's not perfect. But it's a step in the right direction.
Are you going to say anything that makes sense yet? Or are you simply going to continue to make excuses for how ridiculous the religious Right makes the Republicans look?Sometimes it's just the shred of hope that maybe logical reasoning and rational thought is a possibility, in which people want. A realm where logical reasoning and rational thought can survive, is much better than a realm where concrete preordained ideals can be justified as legitimate.Logical reasoning and rational thought.
Please go out and experience life. You will find out in short order that not 5% of the human experience can be explained by logical reasoning or rational thought. Greater minds than any on this board have ended up in asylums trying to fit their existence into a logical, reasonable framework.
It's not perfect. But it's a step in the right direction.
A step in the right direction would be for you to realize that you just posted this as one of those concrete, preordained ideals you just got done abhorring, instead of the matter of personal opinion (yours) that it actually is.
Children and the emotionally immature are so damned funny. They should really go out and take over the world now while they still know everything, before they grow up and realize that obnoxious arrogance was masquerading as knowledge and brilliance after all.
I'm interested in hearing from some of the rational conservatives here. It's no secret that I hang to the left, but I also believe that competition is good. And as long as the Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, anti-intellectual, irrationalist, and/or theocractic fringe are the movers and shakers of the Republican party, I can't see them as a viable alternative to the Democratic party.
So my question is to the more rational conservatives who I recognize are present here and in the general public. The conservatives who are not anti-evolution, obsessed with abortion, spouting over-the-top conspiracy theories, and who can debate on the merits of an idea rather than make-up patently false assertions are my target.
What comes next for you and the Republican party? Do you have any ideas how to regain control? Do you think the GOP should be conceded and another party become home for rational conservatives? What if the Democratic party officially split into Conservative Democrats and Liberal Democrats? (which seems possible these days). Would any of you consider joining a separate Conservative Democrat Party? Should you try to make the Libertarian party a viable national party?
I'm asking with sincerity. I consider it to my advantage if rational people control the opposition. After all, I don't like to think that if the party I generally support loses, then the country could have a Sarah Palin as president. I may frequently support the Democrat party, but I don't appreciate feeling like I have to support them because the alternative is so out of touch.
1. Oh, OK. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
No problem. I hope I clarified what I meant to say.
2. Uh, OK? What does that have to do with you and the Religious Right?
It is the attitude that the "Religious Right" has taken. I don't see the Love of Christ coming out of the right any longer. I see hatred and nothing but hatred for anyone that does not send money to their particular organization. I see greed, corruption and downright dishonesty.
No, I am saying that the only thing that matters to Pat Robertson IS politics, power and the Republican Party. I am saying that his fame and fortune have corrupted him. He should have stayed out of politics. That is not to say that he should not have had his say, but rather that when he got into politics, he too was corrupted by the lust for power
4. No offense, but I'm sick to death of this "so-and-so needs to speak out against so-and-so". Please. How about you have enough intellectual curiosity to seek out varying opinions instead of expecting life to just throw them at you? Liberals (and I'm not assuming you are or you aren't, just giving an example) do this all the time with conservatives: they only pay attention to the handful of people they trust will make outlandish statements, and then base their opinions about the entirety of conservatism based on those small handful of people. Then, when someone mentions that there's more to us than that, they start with that "well then you guys need to speak out and stop letting them speak for you" crap, as if it's our responsibility to monitor what other adults who have mouths and brains in their heads said. Get real. You can only take care of yourself. You might identify with people for some reasons or whatever, but elected officials and people who have a soapbox aren't the same thing. Pundits and televangelists don't "represent" me. They don't represent you.
Please explain that to them.
I think that we do need to speak out. I think people of faith need to point out to them where they have lost the message.
Let me put it like this, the way I see the Pat Robertson's of the world today is as the Pharisee's of Christ's day. They point at themselves as being perfect men of God and people we should all aspire to be. They use the law to make people be like them, yet they have lost track of what Christ came to earth to accomplish... the forgiveness of sins through his own blood.
5. Again, I get the feeling you're generalizing. I don't think it's smart to assume that someone as old as Pat Robertson, who's been around as long as he has, only condemns sinners and never gives them any hope for salvation. We're not talking about Fred Phelps. On the other hand, as many times as the media (and in particular, the gays) have taken his words out of context and lobbed insults at him over being publicly religious, well, maybe he has a certain ire against the institutionalizing of something he finds sinful, more than him seeing no reason to remind them that salvation exists for everyone guilty of any sin. But I've seen it time and time again how people will base the merciful aspects of the Gospel on its political manifestation. Because people like Dobson and Robertson are against stuff like abortion and gay marriage, people figure they're judgmental homophobes. They don't get the whole story, because they don't care about the whole story.
Generalizing? Maybe.
If you know of a Televangelist that is worthy of mention in his/her efforts to further the word of God, please point him out. I'd be interested in learning about them.
I can grant you your point about them being taken out of context and the anger that they may have felt. The Prophets of old went through the same issues.
Did I call either one of them judgmental homophobes? Judgmental probably, but homophobes? I don't think so.
James Dobson used to be one of my favorites. Everyday I listened to Focus on the Family and Family News in Focus. But then he changed. His message changed. It changed from one of love and concern for the people to condemnation of the people and the government of the United States because of the abortion issue. I'd like nothing more than to see the complete end of all abortions worldwide, but that goal will not be accomplished by telling doctors, mothers and anyone else involved in the abortion industry that they are bound for Hell and have no hope of forgiveness.
The Pharisees of Christ's times tried just that. They were better than all those sinners and Christ rebuked them. If Christ were here today, he would do so again.
You appear to be a person of faith by your response to me. I have no idea how much you listen to these people, but since you are a person of faith, I'd ask you to listen to them critically for a change. Listen to what they say with God's Word in your heart. Don't let them preach to you and just accept what they say. Listen to what they say and see if it fits with God's Word and remember just because they quote a few Bible verses does not mean they are spreading the Gospel. I am not comparing them to Satan, but even Satan quoted verses from Scripture.
Immie
I'm interested in hearing from some of the rational conservatives here. It's no secret that I hang to the left, but I also believe that competition is good. And as long as the Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, anti-intellectual, irrationalist, and/or theocractic fringe are the movers and shakers of the Republican party, I can't see them as a viable alternative to the Democratic party.
So my question is to the more rational conservatives who I recognize are present here and in the general public. The conservatives who are not anti-evolution, obsessed with abortion, spouting over-the-top conspiracy theories, and who can debate on the merits of an idea rather than make-up patently false assertions are my target.
What comes next for you and the Republican party? Do you have any ideas how to regain control? Do you think the GOP should be conceded and another party become home for rational conservatives? What if the Democratic party officially split into Conservative Democrats and Liberal Democrats? (which seems possible these days). Would any of you consider joining a separate Conservative Democrat Party? Should you try to make the Libertarian party a viable national party?
I'm asking with sincerity. I consider it to my advantage if rational people control the opposition. After all, I don't like to think that if the party I generally support loses, then the country could have a Sarah Palin as president. I may frequently support the Democrat party, but I don't appreciate feeling like I have to support them because the alternative is so out of touch.
I'm interested in hearing from some of the rational conservatives here. It's no secret that I hang to the left, but I also believe that competition is good. And as long as the Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, anti-intellectual, irrationalist, and/or theocractic fringe are the movers and shakers of the Republican party, I can't see them as a viable alternative to the Democratic party.
So my question is to the more rational conservatives who I recognize are present here and in the general public. The conservatives who are not anti-evolution, obsessed with abortion, spouting over-the-top conspiracy theories, and who can debate on the merits of an idea rather than make-up patently false assertions are my target.
What comes next for you and the Republican party? Do you have any ideas how to regain control? Do you think the GOP should be conceded and another party become home for rational conservatives? What if the Democratic party officially split into Conservative Democrats and Liberal Democrats? (which seems possible these days). Would any of you consider joining a separate Conservative Democrat Party? Should you try to make the Libertarian party a viable national party?
I'm asking with sincerity. I consider it to my advantage if rational people control the opposition. After all, I don't like to think that if the party I generally support loses, then the country could have a Sarah Palin as president. I may frequently support the Democrat party, but I don't appreciate feeling like I have to support them because the alternative is so out of touch.
I don't simply internalize the things the Robertsons and Dobsons of the world say. I completely understand that their message can be more political than spiritual, and occasionally they give into the combative nature of politics more than they should. But I don't think it's entirely fair to cast aspersions on the Religious Right on the words of a handful of people, popular or not, rich or not, nor do I think it's fair to act as if they're part of the problem because they occasionally step off the pulpit onto the soapbox.
James Dobson used to be one of my favorites. Everyday I listened to Focus on the Family and Family News in Focus. But then he changed. His message changed. It changed from one of love and concern for the people to condemnation of the people and the government of the United States because of the abortion issue. I'd like nothing more than to see the complete end of all abortions worldwide, but that goal will not be accomplished by telling doctors, mothers and anyone else involved in the abortion industry that they are bound for Hell and have no hope of forgiveness.
The Pharisees of Christ's times tried just that. They were better than all those sinners and Christ rebuked them. If Christ were here today, he would do so again.
You appear to be a person of faith by your response to me. I have no idea how much you listen to these people, but since you are a person of faith, I'd ask you to listen to them critically for a change. Listen to what they say with God's Word in your heart. Don't let them preach to you and just accept what they say. Listen to what they say and see if it fits with God's Word and remember just because they quote a few Bible verses does not mean they are spreading the Gospel. I am not comparing them to Satan, but even Satan quoted verses from Scripture.
Immie
